[Peripherals] FW: Electricity (was Re: The rest of the puzzle)
info at olpc-peru.info
info at olpc-peru.info
Tue May 20 16:18:09 EDT 2008
This gives me opportunity to answer something that I forgot:
a) I know many populations where potatoes is 80% of their diet.
b) Yes, some populations eat the complete potato. No peelings, no
leftovers. By the way, I eat it because too... because the good fiber
that I need so much. Yesterday I have saw in a fine cooking show (in TV)
that in some preparations (new?) potatoes come complete, no peeling process.
And.. finally... yesterday we (the goverment) has created a new
Ministry: the one for the "Enviroment". The person in charge is against
the production of etanol with something that was used for food before.
I confirm all what Caryl's daughter has inform.
Best regards,
Javier Rodriguez
Lima, Peru
Caryl Bigenho wrote:
>
>
> Hi Folks,
>
> Last week I sent a message re the problems with using potatoes to
> generate power in the Andes. I think some of you missed it. Just
> to make sure I was on target, this morning I called my daughter
> Dr. Michelle Bigenho, who is a cultural anthropologist,
> specializing in the peoples of the Andes. She was in total
> agreement with me that it would be a very bad idea. Here is the
> text of my original comment in case any of you missed it:
>
> We are currently seeing the result of diverting food crops (corn)
> to the production of ethanol. This is leading to worldwide food
> shortages and rising prices. This was an unforeseen consequence.
> We certainly need to avoid causing a similar crisis with the very
> people OLPC is trying to help.
>
> The people of the Andes depend on the potato as the mainstay of
> their diet. They work hard to farm different varieties in
> terraces in various microclimates up and down the mountainsides.
> It is mostly subsistance farming. Because of the cold, dry
> climate, they are able to make a naturally freeze-dried substance
> (called chuño..pronounced chun-yo) that they rely on between
> crops. I doubt that there could be enough "extra" potatoes to
> sustain ethanol production on the scale OLPC would require for
> power generation.
>
> Caryl
>
> > Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 18:54:18 -0700
> > From: echerlin at gmail.com
> > To: peripherals at lists.laptop.org
> > CC: its.an.education.project at tema.lo-res.org;
> earthtreasury at yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Peripherals] Electricity (was Re: The rest of the puzzle)
> >
> > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Yama Ploskonka
> <yama at netoso.com> wrote:
> > > Edward Cherlin wrote:
> > >> I am thinking now of potato power. I assume that there is in the
> > >> villages generally the knowledge, skill, and equipment for
> fermenting
> > >> potatoes and distilling the resulting alcohol/water/plant
> residue mix
> > >> into 95% ethanol. It is my impression that the uplands of
> Perú are
> > >> excellent potato-growing areas. Hm, yes, potatoes originated
> in Perú,
> > >> which has more than 3,000 varieties. I'll need to know the market
> > >> price of potatoes in the villages, and the cost of the resulting
> > >> ethanol. We will have to help to get the ethanol from the
> vodka level
> > >> to the fuel level. Well, this
> > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification
> > >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification> will do
> to get the
> > >> conversation started.
> > >
> > > You know, it's better business to do so for the vodka, and
> then use that
> > > money to buy gasoline. One little problem, producers might
> drink that
> > > vodka. That is why producing your own ethanol is illegal in
> most places
> > > of the world, the government wants taxes on it. So OK, you
> make a law
> > > that people can make ethanol, but should not drink it, or
> should pay
> > > taxes on it. Sure.
> > >
> > > With the levels of corruption existing, no one can
> realistically think
> > > this will work. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.
> >
> > We'll discuss corruption separately.
> >
> > >> Another possibility seems to be a hybrid system using solar
> power for
> > >> half the year, and microhydro in the cloudy/rainy season.
> Well, we
> > >> must run the numbers and find out.
> > >
> > > Well, double expense to begin with.
> >
> > That is a false assumption. Solar requires imported solar cells, but
> > micro-hydro rigs can be built from local materials plus a used
> > alternator. It costs more to do both, certainly, but you don't know
> > how much more. That is what I intend to find out.
> >
> > > Again, won't pay itself because
> > > there are no opportunities for business, because of
> corruption, etc...
> >
> > I think I didn't explain my idea of business opportunities
> adequately.
> > But that is another thread. I refuse to believe that business is
> > completely impossible inside the villages.
> >
> > >> I have contacts in sustainable fuels, business, and
> engineering, but I
> > >> wouldn't turn down any others that people here come up with. What
> > >> mailing lists, social networking sites, and other places can
> we ask
> > >> these questions on? I know that we can ask on LinkedIn.
> >
> > > The list of goodwill projects that have been a waste of
> resources, not
> > > solving anything, is long and growing. See and weep, and this
> is just
> > > ONE list.
> > > www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/IMG/pdf/MAE_BOLIVIE_annexes.pdf
> >
> > While I understand your reason for objecting to every suggestion
> > (after all, it is true that nothing has worked in the past) I think
> > that it is unhelpful at this point in the discussion. People in the
> > innovation business say that the first step is to get all the
> > theoretically possible solutions out on the table, regardless of
> cost
> > and other apparent practicalities, and then see whether any of them
> > can be re-engineered to deal with the obstacles.
> >
> > The Wright brothers knew all the objections to heavier-than-air
> flight
> > before they built their wind tunnel and found out what shape of
> wings
> > would work, with what lift and drag. They were then able to
> calculate
> > the power-to-weight ratio needed for their engine, and ask
> > manufacturers to design one to fit their specifications. It doesn't
> > matter how many manufacturers said no, because they only needed
> one to
> > say yes. That's how we have to think, and that's how we have to act.
> > It still took 30 years from their first flight to regular passenger
> > service, but a lot of other uses for airplanes appeared in the
> > meantime. We are not looking for the architecture and funding
> plan for
> > complete Peruvian rural electrification. We only need 5-10 watts per
> > pupil, not all the time.
> >
> > We are going to winnow the possibilities, but let us first see
> what is
> > technically possible, then what is financially possible, then
> what is
> > practical under the given conditions. I want to start with the
> list on
> > the Battery and power page on the Wiki, and create the analysis for
> > each possibility. Let us distinguish the possibilities for the
> > potato-growing regions, up to 2500 m or so, and the pastoral
> societies
> > above that level, up to 5000 m. I claim that the following are
> > technically feasible in the high mountains of Perú, given the five
> > months or so of heavy cloud cover (with how much rain?) and drought
> > the rest of the year.
> >
> > * Solar, for about half the year
> > * Microhydro, for about half the year. More if we can figure out how
> > to create reservoirs.
> > * Ethanol up to 2500 m or so (where the potatoes grow) or higher if
> > the herdspeople can trade meat or wool for potatoes or ethanol with
> > communities lower down the mountains
> > * Other biofuels
> > * Wood Gas Generator
> > * Child Powered Play Charger
> > * Other human power, including bicycles
> > * Animal power (I haven't heard of this with sheep or llamas, but it
> > certainly works with dogs, cows, water buffalo, and camels.)
> > * Wind power
> >
> > Which of these can be made entirely from locally available
> materials,
> > including alternators from junked cars? I'll ask Engineers Without
> > Borders and Practical Action (the Schumacher appropriate technology
> > people), among others. MIT contacts, please.
> >
> > Javier, please find out what used alternators go for from
> junkyards in
> > Perú. Here is one other data point. "The cost of a Delco CS-130
> > alternator at any US junkyard should be $10.00 to $15.00 US."
> > http://bernardembden.com/xjs/altmove/index.htm
> >
> > When I ask you whether it is better to curse the darkness or to
> teach
> > people to make candles, I don't want to hear you grumbling about the
> > lack of candle-making materials. If we don't have candlewax, we will
> > make oil lamps or coal fires or something. I just want a direct
> answer
> > to the question. Are you in or out? Are you ready to work toward
> > solutions, or not? OK?
> > --
> > Edward Cherlin
> > End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business
> > http://www.EarthTreasury.org/
> > "The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay
> > _______________________________________________
> > Peripherals mailing list
> > Peripherals at lists.laptop.org
> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/peripherals
>
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