[Peripherals] FW: Electricity (was Re: The rest of the puzzle)

info at olpc-peru.info info at olpc-peru.info
Tue May 20 16:18:09 EDT 2008


This gives me opportunity to answer something that I forgot:

a) I know many populations where potatoes is 80% of their diet.
b) Yes, some populations eat the complete potato.  No peelings, no 
leftovers.  By the way, I eat it because too... because the good fiber 
that I need so much. Yesterday I have saw in a fine cooking show (in TV) 
that in some preparations (new?) potatoes come complete, no peeling process.

And.. finally... yesterday we (the goverment) has created a new 
Ministry: the one for the "Enviroment".  The person in charge is against 
the production of etanol with something that was used for food before.

I confirm all what Caryl's daughter has inform.

Best regards,

Javier Rodriguez
Lima, Peru


Caryl Bigenho wrote:
>
>
>     Hi Folks,
>
>     Last week I sent a message re the problems with using potatoes to
>     generate power in the Andes.  I think some of you missed it.  Just
>     to make sure I was on target, this morning I called my daughter
>     Dr. Michelle Bigenho, who is a cultural anthropologist,
>     specializing in the peoples of the Andes.  She was in total
>     agreement with me that it would be a very bad idea.  Here is the
>     text of my original comment in case any of you missed it:
>
>     We are currently seeing the result of diverting food crops (corn)
>     to the production of ethanol.  This is leading to worldwide food
>     shortages and rising prices.  This was an unforeseen consequence. 
>     We certainly need to avoid causing a similar crisis with the very
>     people OLPC is trying to help.
>
>     The people of the Andes depend on the potato as the mainstay of
>     their diet.  They work hard to farm different varieties in
>     terraces in various microclimates up and down the mountainsides.
>     It is mostly subsistance farming. Because of the cold, dry
>     climate, they are able to make a naturally freeze-dried substance
>     (called chuño..pronounced chun-yo) that they rely on between
>     crops. I doubt that there could be enough "extra" potatoes to
>     sustain ethanol production on the scale OLPC would require for
>     power generation.
>
>     Caryl
>
>     > Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 18:54:18 -0700
>     > From: echerlin at gmail.com
>     > To: peripherals at lists.laptop.org
>     > CC: its.an.education.project at tema.lo-res.org;
>     earthtreasury at yahoogroups.com
>     > Subject: [Peripherals] Electricity (was Re: The rest of the puzzle)
>     >
>     > On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Yama Ploskonka
>     <yama at netoso.com> wrote:
>     > > Edward Cherlin wrote:
>     > >> I am thinking now of potato power. I assume that there is in the
>     > >> villages generally the knowledge, skill, and equipment for
>     fermenting
>     > >> potatoes and distilling the resulting alcohol/water/plant
>     residue mix
>     > >> into 95% ethanol. It is my impression that the uplands of
>     Perú are
>     > >> excellent potato-growing areas. Hm, yes, potatoes originated
>     in Perú,
>     > >> which has more than 3,000 varieties. I'll need to know the market
>     > >> price of potatoes in the villages, and the cost of the resulting
>     > >> ethanol. We will have to help to get the ethanol from the
>     vodka level
>     > >> to the fuel level. Well, this
>     > >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification
>     > >> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification> will do
>     to get the
>     > >> conversation started.
>     > >
>     > > You know, it's better business to do so for the vodka, and
>     then use that
>     > > money to buy gasoline. One little problem, producers might
>     drink that
>     > > vodka. That is why producing your own ethanol is illegal in
>     most places
>     > > of the world, the government wants taxes on it. So OK, you
>     make a law
>     > > that people can make ethanol, but should not drink it, or
>     should pay
>     > > taxes on it. Sure.
>     > >
>     > > With the levels of corruption existing, no one can
>     realistically think
>     > > this will work. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.
>     >
>     > We'll discuss corruption separately.
>     >
>     > >> Another possibility seems to be a hybrid system using solar
>     power for
>     > >> half the year, and microhydro in the cloudy/rainy season.
>     Well, we
>     > >> must run the numbers and find out.
>     > >
>     > > Well, double expense to begin with.
>     >
>     > That is a false assumption. Solar requires imported solar cells, but
>     > micro-hydro rigs can be built from local materials plus a used
>     > alternator. It costs more to do both, certainly, but you don't know
>     > how much more. That is what I intend to find out.
>     >
>     > > Again, won't pay itself because
>     > > there are no opportunities for business, because of
>     corruption, etc...
>     >
>     > I think I didn't explain my idea of business opportunities
>     adequately.
>     > But that is another thread. I refuse to believe that business is
>     > completely impossible inside the villages.
>     >
>     > >> I have contacts in sustainable fuels, business, and
>     engineering, but I
>     > >> wouldn't turn down any others that people here come up with. What
>     > >> mailing lists, social networking sites, and other places can
>     we ask
>     > >> these questions on? I know that we can ask on LinkedIn.
>     >
>     > > The list of goodwill projects that have been a waste of
>     resources, not
>     > > solving anything, is long and growing. See and weep, and this
>     is just
>     > > ONE list.
>     > > www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/IMG/pdf/MAE_BOLIVIE_annexes.pdf
>     >
>     > While I understand your reason for objecting to every suggestion
>     > (after all, it is true that nothing has worked in the past) I think
>     > that it is unhelpful at this point in the discussion. People in the
>     > innovation business say that the first step is to get all the
>     > theoretically possible solutions out on the table, regardless of
>     cost
>     > and other apparent practicalities, and then see whether any of them
>     > can be re-engineered to deal with the obstacles.
>     >
>     > The Wright brothers knew all the objections to heavier-than-air
>     flight
>     > before they built their wind tunnel and found out what shape of
>     wings
>     > would work, with what lift and drag. They were then able to
>     calculate
>     > the power-to-weight ratio needed for their engine, and ask
>     > manufacturers to design one to fit their specifications. It doesn't
>     > matter how many manufacturers said no, because they only needed
>     one to
>     > say yes. That's how we have to think, and that's how we have to act.
>     > It still took 30 years from their first flight to regular passenger
>     > service, but a lot of other uses for airplanes appeared in the
>     > meantime. We are not looking for the architecture and funding
>     plan for
>     > complete Peruvian rural electrification. We only need 5-10 watts per
>     > pupil, not all the time.
>     >
>     > We are going to winnow the possibilities, but let us first see
>     what is
>     > technically possible, then what is financially possible, then
>     what is
>     > practical under the given conditions. I want to start with the
>     list on
>     > the Battery and power page on the Wiki, and create the analysis for
>     > each possibility. Let us distinguish the possibilities for the
>     > potato-growing regions, up to 2500 m or so, and the pastoral
>     societies
>     > above that level, up to 5000 m. I claim that the following are
>     > technically feasible in the high mountains of Perú, given the five
>     > months or so of heavy cloud cover (with how much rain?) and drought
>     > the rest of the year.
>     >
>     > * Solar, for about half the year
>     > * Microhydro, for about half the year. More if we can figure out how
>     > to create reservoirs.
>     > * Ethanol up to 2500 m or so (where the potatoes grow) or higher if
>     > the herdspeople can trade meat or wool for potatoes or ethanol with
>     > communities lower down the mountains
>     > * Other biofuels
>     > * Wood Gas Generator
>     > * Child Powered Play Charger
>     > * Other human power, including bicycles
>     > * Animal power (I haven't heard of this with sheep or llamas, but it
>     > certainly works with dogs, cows, water buffalo, and camels.)
>     > * Wind power
>     >
>     > Which of these can be made entirely from locally available
>     materials,
>     > including alternators from junked cars? I'll ask Engineers Without
>     > Borders and Practical Action (the Schumacher appropriate technology
>     > people), among others. MIT contacts, please.
>     >
>     > Javier, please find out what used alternators go for from
>     junkyards in
>     > Perú. Here is one other data point. "The cost of a Delco CS-130
>     > alternator at any US junkyard should be $10.00 to $15.00 US."
>     > http://bernardembden.com/xjs/altmove/index.htm
>     >
>     > When I ask you whether it is better to curse the darkness or to
>     teach
>     > people to make candles, I don't want to hear you grumbling about the
>     > lack of candle-making materials. If we don't have candlewax, we will
>     > make oil lamps or coal fires or something. I just want a direct
>     answer
>     > to the question. Are you in or out? Are you ready to work toward
>     > solutions, or not? OK?
>     > --
>     > Edward Cherlin
>     > End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business
>     > http://www.EarthTreasury.org/
>     > "The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay
>     > _______________________________________________
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>     > Peripherals at lists.laptop.org
>     > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/peripherals
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