[Peripherals] [earthtreasury] Electricity (was Re: The rest of the puzzle)

[Yama Ploskonka]

>  >> into 95% ethanol. It is my impression that the uplands of Perú are
>  >
>  > You know, it's better business to do so for the vodka, and then use that

I have been told that for some reason distillation at high altitudes (= 
at low pressure) does give some extraordinary results.  Long story, but 
they say a 4 year-old whisky tastes like 12-year old. But I have no 
actual experience doing this kind of distillation consistently to have 
made an opinion.

> We'll discuss corruption separately.

Not just separately, Ed.  Let's please discuss it _first_, and get 
solutions for that first if we ever hope to solve anything other.

>  >> Another possibility seems to be a hybrid system using solar power for
>  >> half the year, and microhydro in the cloudy/rainy season. Well, we
>  >> must run the numbers and find out.
>  >
>  > Well, double expense to begin with.
> 
> That is a false assumption. Solar requires imported solar cells, but
> micro-hydro rigs can be built from local materials plus a used
> alternator. It costs more to do both, certainly, but you don't know
> how much more. That is what I intend to find out.

My Dad loves mini-pelton solutions.  Not practical for most of the 
Andes, but perfect for the valleys leading to the Amazonian jungle.
Actually it is the cheapest solution, and the most appropriate for 
_that_ area.  The Chinese manufacture (and sell locally) small peltons 
rated as "this many lightbulbs"

>  > Again, won't pay itself because
>  > there are no opportunities for business, because of corruption, etc...
> 
> I think I didn't explain my idea of business opportunities adequately.
> But that is another thread. I refuse to believe that business is
> completely impossible inside the villages.

I am very curious what you have in mind, and how we can help.  That 
thread, profitable and self-sustaining business in Andean villages, is 
of utmost interest to me.

>  > www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/IMG/pdf/MAE_BOLIVIE_annexes.pdf
> 
> While I understand your reason for objecting to every suggestion
> (after all, it is true that nothing has worked in the past) I think
> that it is unhelpful at this point in the discussion. People in the
> innovation business say that the first step is to get all the
> theoretically possible solutions out on the table, regardless of cost
> and other apparent practicalities, and then see whether any of them
> can be re-engineered to deal with the obstacles.

Valid argument in theory, as long as we actually can merely look at 
these without ever trying them out.  Problem is, we (Andean people) have 
aversion to risk because one single failure at trying out something 
usually means hunger that year, a couple failures might mean extinction.

> The Wright brothers knew all the objections to heavier-than-air flight
> before they built their wind tunnel and found out what shape of wings
> would work, with what lift and drag. They were then able to calculate
> the power-to-weight ratio needed for their engine, and ask
> manufacturers to design one to fit their specifications. It doesn't
> matter how many manufacturers said no, because they only needed one to
> say yes. That's how we have to think, and that's how we have to act.
> It still took 30 years from their first flight to regular passenger
> service, but a lot of other uses for airplanes appeared in the
> meantime. We are not looking for the architecture and funding plan for
> complete Peruvian rural electrification. We only need 5-10 watts per
> pupil, not all the time.

Let's not forget that in practical terms this is an infrastructure 
problem.  As such, its roots and solutions tend to be bigger.

> We are going to winnow the possibilities, but let us first see what is
> technically possible, then what is financially possible, then what is
> practical under the given conditions. I want to start with the list on
> the Battery and power page on the Wiki, and create the analysis for
> each possibility. Let us distinguish the possibilities for the
> potato-growing regions, up to 2500 m or so, and the pastoral societies
> above that level, up to 5000 m. I claim that the following are
> technically feasible in the high mountains of Perú, given the five
> months or so of heavy cloud cover (with how much rain?) and drought
> the rest of the year.
> 
> * Solar, for about half the year
> * Microhydro, for about half the year. More if we can figure out how
> to create reservoirs.

Way too flat most everywhere.  Where it's not flat, water runs in sudden 
flash floods.  Reservoirs night impossible because of the kind of 
terrain and level of investment.

> * Ethanol up to 2500 m or so (where the potatoes grow) or higher if
> the herdspeople can trade meat or wool for potatoes or ethanol with
> communities lower down the mountains

Potatoes are grown even much higher, but at those altitudes there is not 
enough excess to trade in most places.  Places that have that excess are 
usually wealthy enough to have bought themselves having the power grid 
arrive to their villages.  It's the dirt poor, the ones who are not 
going to be able to help themselves that need these solutions

> * Other biofuels
> * Wood Gas Generator

Hey!  you know about this!  This one has a chance, in my view, but I am 
also claim vaporware status for this one, always wanted to but never got 
along to building one.  I intend to try this maybe next year.  With 
current gas prices this might be the one, not just for the Andes but 
pretty much anywhere!

> * Child Powered Play Charger
> * Other human power, including bicycles
> * Animal power (I haven't heard of this with sheep or llamas, but it
> certainly works with dogs, cows, water buffalo, and camels.)

won't work, believe me.  Or will work almost as well as the Potenco 
solution.  Respectfully ROTFL.  I've raised sheep.

> * Wind power

has proven to work, especially with just junked parts.
Saw an article in current Popular Science I was browsing that looked cute.

> Which of these can be made entirely from locally available materials,
> including alternators from junked cars? I'll ask Engineers Without
> Borders and Practical Action (the Schumacher appropriate technology
> people), among others. MIT contacts, please.

Oh, by all means.

> Javier, please find out what used alternators go for from junkyards in
> Perú. Here is one other data point. "The cost of a Delco CS-130
> alternator at any US junkyard should be $10.00 to $15.00 US."
> http://bernardembden.com/xjs/altmove/index.htm 
> <http://bernardembden.com/xjs/altmove/index.htm>

> When I ask you whether it is better to curse the darkness or to teach
> people to make candles, I don't want to hear you grumbling about the
> lack of candle-making materials. If we don't have candlewax, we will
> make oil lamps or coal fires or something. I just want a direct answer
> to the question. Are you in or out? Are you ready to work toward
> solutions, or not? OK?

Ed, one of my :-) fondest :-) memories is of this Inspector of Education 
in Uruguay who was trying to convince a roomful of Uruguayan teachers 
that farmers could use biogas to power their tractors.  I was there, and 
called his bluff which you may imagine advanced my career no end.

I mean it, I have made candles, I have made oil lamps and used them. 
Depended on a junked-dynamo wind generator to watch sitcoms.

If you can figure a way they can pay for it, or devote time to it, 
people out there will be happy to.   Who knows, maybe you do come up 
with a solution that no one has thought of before, and I do not want to 
hinder that any further.

Yama