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This gives me opportunity to answer something that I forgot:<br>
<br>
a) I know many populations where potatoes is 80% of their diet.<br>
b) Yes, some populations eat the complete potato. No peelings, no
leftovers. By the way, I eat it because too... because the good fiber
that I need so much. Yesterday I have saw in a fine cooking show (in
TV) that in some preparations (new?) potatoes come complete, no peeling
process.<br>
<br>
And.. finally... yesterday we (the goverment) has created a new
Ministry: the one for the "Enviroment". The person in charge is
against the production of etanol with something that was used for food
before.<br>
<br>
I confirm all what Caryl's daughter has inform.<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Javier Rodriguez<br>
Lima, Peru<br>
<br>
<br>
Caryl Bigenho wrote:
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Hi Folks,<br>
<br>
Last week I sent a message re the problems with using potatoes to
generate power in the Andes. I think some of you missed it. Just to
make sure I was on target, this morning I called my daughter Dr.
Michelle Bigenho, who is a cultural anthropologist, specializing in the
peoples of the Andes. She was in total agreement with me that it would
be a very bad idea. Here is the text of my original comment in case
any of you missed it:<br>
<br>
<span style="font-style: italic;">We are currently seeing the
result of diverting food crops (corn) to
the production of ethanol. This is leading to worldwide food shortages
and rising prices. This was an unforeseen consequence. We certainly
need to avoid causing a similar crisis with the very people OLPC is
trying to help.</span><br style="font-style: italic;">
<br style="font-style: italic;">
<span style="font-style: italic;">The people of the Andes depend on
the potato as
the mainstay of their diet. They work hard to farm different varieties
in terraces in various microclimates up and down the mountainsides. It
is mostly subsistance farming. Because of the cold, dry climate, they
are able to make a naturally freeze-dried substance (called
chuño..pronounced chun-yo) that they rely on between crops. I doubt
that there could be enough "extra" potatoes to sustain ethanol
production on the scale OLPC would require for power generation.</span><br>
<br>
Caryl<br>
<br>
> Date: Mon, 19 May 2008 18:54:18 -0700<br>
> From: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:echerlin@gmail.com">echerlin@gmail.com</a><br>
> To: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:peripherals@lists.laptop.org">peripherals@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
> CC: <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:its.an.education.project@tema.lo-res.org">its.an.education.project@tema.lo-res.org</a>;
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:earthtreasury@yahoogroups.com">earthtreasury@yahoogroups.com</a><br>
> Subject: [Peripherals] Electricity (was Re: The rest of the puzzle)<br>
> <br>
> On Thu, May 15, 2008 at 10:55 AM, Yama Ploskonka
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:yama@netoso.com"><yama@netoso.com></a> wrote:<br>
> > Edward Cherlin wrote:<br>
> >> I am thinking now of potato power. I assume that there is
in the<br>
> >> villages generally the knowledge, skill, and equipment
for fermenting<br>
> >> potatoes and distilling the resulting alcohol/water/plant
residue mix<br>
> >> into 95% ethanol. It is my impression that the uplands of
Perú are<br>
> >> excellent potato-growing areas. Hm, yes, potatoes
originated in Perú,<br>
> >> which has more than 3,000 varieties. I'll need to know
the market<br>
> >> price of potatoes in the villages, and the cost of the
resulting<br>
> >> ethanol. We will have to help to get the ethanol from the
vodka level<br>
> >> to the fuel level. Well, this<br>
> >> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification</a><br>
> >> <a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification"><http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_purification></a>
will do to get the<br>
> >> conversation started.<br>
> ><br>
> > You know, it's better business to do so for the vodka, and
then use that<br>
> > money to buy gasoline. One little problem, producers might
drink that<br>
> > vodka. That is why producing your own ethanol is illegal in
most places<br>
> > of the world, the government wants taxes on it. So OK, you
make a law<br>
> > that people can make ethanol, but should not drink it, or
should pay<br>
> > taxes on it. Sure.<br>
> ><br>
> > With the levels of corruption existing, no one can
realistically think<br>
> > this will work. I'm sorry, but that's the way it is.<br>
> <br>
> We'll discuss corruption separately.<br>
> <br>
> >> Another possibility seems to be a hybrid system using
solar power for<br>
> >> half the year, and microhydro in the cloudy/rainy season.
Well, we<br>
> >> must run the numbers and find out.<br>
> ><br>
> > Well, double expense to begin with.<br>
> <br>
> That is a false assumption. Solar requires imported solar cells,
but<br>
> micro-hydro rigs can be built from local materials plus a used<br>
> alternator. It costs more to do both, certainly, but you don't know<br>
> how much more. That is what I intend to find out.<br>
> <br>
> > Again, won't pay itself because<br>
> > there are no opportunities for business, because of
corruption, etc...<br>
> <br>
> I think I didn't explain my idea of business opportunities
adequately.<br>
> But that is another thread. I refuse to believe that business is<br>
> completely impossible inside the villages.<br>
> <br>
> >> I have contacts in sustainable fuels, business, and
engineering, but I<br>
> >> wouldn't turn down any others that people here come up
with. What<br>
> >> mailing lists, social networking sites, and other places
can we ask<br>
> >> these questions on? I know that we can ask on LinkedIn.<br>
> <br>
> > The list of goodwill projects that have been a waste of
resources, not<br>
> > solving anything, is long and growing. See and weep, and this
is just<br>
> > ONE list.<br>
> > <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="http://www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/IMG/pdf/MAE_BOLIVIE_annexes.pdf">www.diplomatie.gouv.fr/fr/IMG/pdf/MAE_BOLIVIE_annexes.pdf</a><br>
> <br>
> While I understand your reason for objecting to every suggestion<br>
> (after all, it is true that nothing has worked in the past) I think<br>
> that it is unhelpful at this point in the discussion. People in the<br>
> innovation business say that the first step is to get all the<br>
> theoretically possible solutions out on the table, regardless of
cost<br>
> and other apparent practicalities, and then see whether any of them<br>
> can be re-engineered to deal with the obstacles.<br>
> <br>
> The Wright brothers knew all the objections to heavier-than-air
flight<br>
> before they built their wind tunnel and found out what shape of
wings<br>
> would work, with what lift and drag. They were then able to
calculate<br>
> the power-to-weight ratio needed for their engine, and ask<br>
> manufacturers to design one to fit their specifications. It doesn't<br>
> matter how many manufacturers said no, because they only needed
one to<br>
> say yes. That's how we have to think, and that's how we have to
act.<br>
> It still took 30 years from their first flight to regular passenger<br>
> service, but a lot of other uses for airplanes appeared in the<br>
> meantime. We are not looking for the architecture and funding plan
for<br>
> complete Peruvian rural electrification. We only need 5-10 watts
per<br>
> pupil, not all the time.<br>
> <br>
> We are going to winnow the possibilities, but let us first see
what is<br>
> technically possible, then what is financially possible, then what
is<br>
> practical under the given conditions. I want to start with the
list on<br>
> the Battery and power page on the Wiki, and create the analysis for<br>
> each possibility. Let us distinguish the possibilities for the<br>
> potato-growing regions, up to 2500 m or so, and the pastoral
societies<br>
> above that level, up to 5000 m. I claim that the following are<br>
> technically feasible in the high mountains of Perú, given the five<br>
> months or so of heavy cloud cover (with how much rain?) and drought<br>
> the rest of the year.<br>
> <br>
> * Solar, for about half the year<br>
> * Microhydro, for about half the year. More if we can figure out
how<br>
> to create reservoirs.<br>
> * Ethanol up to 2500 m or so (where the potatoes grow) or higher if<br>
> the herdspeople can trade meat or wool for potatoes or ethanol with<br>
> communities lower down the mountains<br>
> * Other biofuels<br>
> * Wood Gas Generator<br>
> * Child Powered Play Charger<br>
> * Other human power, including bicycles<br>
> * Animal power (I haven't heard of this with sheep or llamas, but
it<br>
> certainly works with dogs, cows, water buffalo, and camels.)<br>
> * Wind power<br>
> <br>
> Which of these can be made entirely from locally available
materials,<br>
> including alternators from junked cars? I'll ask Engineers Without<br>
> Borders and Practical Action (the Schumacher appropriate technology<br>
> people), among others. MIT contacts, please.<br>
> <br>
> Javier, please find out what used alternators go for from
junkyards in<br>
> Perú. Here is one other data point. "The cost of a Delco CS-130<br>
> alternator at any US junkyard should be $10.00 to $15.00 US."<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://bernardembden.com/xjs/altmove/index.htm">http://bernardembden.com/xjs/altmove/index.htm</a><br>
> <br>
> When I ask you whether it is better to curse the darkness or to
teach<br>
> people to make candles, I don't want to hear you grumbling about
the<br>
> lack of candle-making materials. If we don't have candlewax, we
will<br>
> make oil lamps or coal fires or something. I just want a direct
answer<br>
> to the question. Are you in or out? Are you ready to work toward<br>
> solutions, or not? OK?<br>
> -- <br>
> Edward Cherlin<br>
> End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business<br>
> <a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://www.EarthTreasury.org/">http://www.EarthTreasury.org/</a><br>
> "The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay<br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
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> <a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:Peripherals@lists.laptop.org">Peripherals@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
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