[Peripherals] Alternitive Power for Developing Countries
Mike Dawson
mike at paiwastoon.com.af
Mon May 12 01:41:49 EDT 2008
Hi Javier,
Too bad you don't have such a good supply of scrap. Maybe we should
start finding ways of exporting it... The only thing that might supply
you well is if they decide to replace a lot of buses - would give you
hundreds of towers easily.
History of it is definitely interesting... let's see who writes the next
section ;)
Regards,
-Mike
info at olpc-peru.info wrote:
> Hello Mike,
>
> Yes you can use A LOT of the parts of old cars and vehicles. They
> are, without doubt, very usefull to "transform" them in wind, water,
> human or animal driven generators (or alternators).
>
> Our problem in Peru is that we will install 245,000 computers (XOs).
> And it is not possible to find that number of "2nd hand" devices (here
> in Peru). So we must plan something based on "new parts".
>
> Regarding some "energy or electricity devices" that came from "not
> occidental" countries in old times ...
>
> a) We have the famous "Baghdad Batteries" ("In 1938 Wilhelm Konig, the
> director of antiquities at the Iraq Museum in Baghdad, found four
> unglazed ceramic vessels in a grave that was dated in the time of the
> Parthians occupation of the area (248 BC-226 AD). Three vessels had
> copper cylinders made of copper sheet with a copper end that was
> lead-soldered to the bottom of the cylinders. One of these vessels had
> an iron spike inside the copper cylinder, with the remains of an
> asphalt-like plug, ... the vessels looked like galvanic cells..."
> You can see a "working reconstruction" of the Baghdad batteries in You
> Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlFZ4h4RUwE And you can find
> more info here: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13653279
> <http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13653279> and here:
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery
>
> b) Some similar vessels were found by Jacques Costeau in the
> Meditterranean Sea (many meters deep in the water).
>
> c) There are arguments that these devices produce so few energy... but
> then we need to read the old ancient indian books (similar to our
> Bible).. one of them explains that you can "attach" some of this
> vessels to produce energy... so we have artifacts in one place
> (Baghdad) and explanation in other place (Hindu sacred books) that the
> old people know how to install them in a "serial" way to produce
> enough power. Then, by some reason, we the occidental world, lost
> this knowledge. We recover it with Alexander Volta in year 1800.
> Then we got the help of the so great giants as Nikola Tesla and Thomas
> Edison in the first years of the 20th century.
>
> d) "Hero's engine was a primitive steam-driven machine found in Egypt,
> and like the battery of Baghdad, no one is quite sure what it was used
> for, but are convinced it could work."...
> (http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_11.htm This link as a lot of
> useful info about the Baghdad batteries too).
>
> e) "Thales of Miletus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales> wrote in
> the 6th century BC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_century_BC> that
> rubbing fur <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur> on various substances,
> such as amber <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber>, would cause a
> particular attraction <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attraction>
> between the two, which is now known as static electricity
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatics>. The Greeks noted that
> the amber buttons could attract light objects such as hair
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair> and that if they rubbed the amber
> for long enough they could even get a spark
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark> to jump"
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_electricity)
>
> I recognize in full that the old civilizations were very advanced in
> many areas. Great to know that in Afghanistan there were such great
> things like the wind mills. History is written by the winners but
> that is not all the history.
>
> Best regards,
>
> Javier Rodriguez
> Lima, Peru
>
>
>
> Mike Dawson wrote:
>> Hey,
>>
>>
>> I've just been browsing through - need to check through this in quite
>> a bit more depth - but would very likely have one built here put it
>> on our roof (our house is pretty tall) and see how it works on our
>> roof (here in Kabul, Afghanistan). The other thing we really need to
>> find out is how it deals with / has difficulties with dust.
>>
>>
>> One issue I see here is it is often possible to find somewhere nearby
>> that has some height - however in running the cable we either loose
>> the money on the cost of the copper...
>>
>>
>> Maybe we can find some ways that we can use scrap vehicles etc for
>> conductors / towers? If we take a nice thick section of scrap
>> vehicle that could allow us to run the power further without
>> resistance problems as long as it isn't rusted through - perhaps to
>> some nearby point a bit higher up. We have plenty of those around
>> (old buses, soviet tanks, abandoned cars, etc.). Not sure if other
>> countries have such a great supply of those but we sure do... In
>> that case we would need something like a 'construction squad' that
>> would have a big generator for welding equipment.
>>
>>
>> Would love to try it out - as a matter of trivia - as far as I am
>> aware the first recorded device to harness wind energy for human
>> needs was in Herat, Western Afghanistan (according to 1001 inventions
>> from the Islamic World /
>> http://muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=328) - so
>> would be great if we can do some experiments in the 'home' of wind
>> Energy...
>>
>>
>> I look forward to reading what happens in Peru...
>>
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>>
>> info at olpc-peru.info wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Caryl,
>>>
>>> Wind is fine, Savonius is fine. Everything works but with its own
>>> limitations (and advantages!)
>>>
>>> From the same article that you tell us about:
>>> "Much of the swept area of a Savonius rotor is near the ground,
>>> making the overall energy extraction less effective due to lower
>>> wind speed at lower heights."
>>>
>>> Yes, more height then you get more wind. You need 8 mph to get
>>> enough wind energy to supply a house energy requirements. You can
>>> find this kind of winds at 10 meters (30 feet) over the soil
>>> surface. When we speak that you need some "heigth" we don't mean
>>> "altitude". There are windy places in the peruvian coast (at 3 feet
>>> altitude) and there are windy places in the high andes (at 15,000
>>> feet altitude and more). In both cases you need to get more
>>> "height" from the soil surface (those 10 meters or 30 feet)... then
>>> you need a tower. Yes, I know some places (you must know some too)
>>> that at soil level you have strong winds, but normally we need to
>>> setup the wind mill near to a house or school... and that school is
>>> in the middle of a city or village... then, thumb rule applies, you
>>> need a tower that is 2.5 times (height) than the houses and trees in
>>> the area. Furthermore, villages are build in "protected" places (in
>>> the middle of valleys tipically... ) not in the top of the
>>> surrounding mountains... so we need to study every case, but in
>>> general terms, if you need serious and more steady stream of wind
>>> then we need a tower (unlucky we are... because the tower cost
>>> money, big and important money).
>>>
>>> 600 RPM is what the normal small car alternators require to produce
>>> energy. So... we have two options: or we get alternators that need
>>> lower RMP (easier) or we get a method to provide more RPM with human
>>> movement (harder). To get (build) low RPM alternators we need to do
>>> the next :
>>> a) Get bigger magnets (or more magnets).
>>> b) Install bigger (or more!) copper coils.
>>> c) Get more speed on the "turning" of the pulley/rotor in the
>>> alternator
>>> d) A combination of all the previous options.
>>>
>>> "Savonius turbines are used whenever cost or reliability is much
>>> more important than efficiency."
>>>
>>> Sure. They are less expensive because there is no tower to build.
>>> It can be mounted in the top of a roof. The issue is that we need
>>> to test (aritmetically) what kind of gadget (pulleys and rotors,
>>> transformation rate of one gear to the another one) we will connect
>>> to the Savonius wind mill. IF we get a very low RPM alternator then
>>> it would be possible to combine with a Savonius wind mill mounted in
>>> a normal roof (no tower needed).
>>>
>>> I guess that we will end talking/thinking/looking for the spare
>>> parts so we (all) can build our own electromagnet generator
>>> (alternator).
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Javier Rodriguez
>>> Lima, Peru
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Caryl Bigenho wrote:
>>>> Hi Javier,
>>>>
>>>> Yes, I definitely agree that the folks using the technology should
>>>> be able to choose what they want and to participate in its
>>>> construction. If they can just be given simple plans for devices
>>>> they can construct at a modest cost, and that will work for them,
>>>> it would be wonderful.
>>>> This would also take away some of the suspicion the folks have of
>>>> outsiders who want to get them to do something new and different.
>>>> Your tale about the water wells was interesting and a good
>>>> illustration of this suspicion. I could tell similar tales of
>>>> folks in Bolivia who won't accept health care, from a medical
>>>> doctor from the Catholic church who has lived among them for
>>>> decades, when a child becomes ill with a potentially fatal but
>>>> easily cured disease. They say it is God's will whether the child
>>>> lives or dies and they don't want to interfere. Many children die
>>>> needlessly.
>>>>
>>>> There is also a political concern. If the small villages of Peru
>>>> are anything like the ones in Bolivia (they probably are), there is
>>>> a lot of difficulty getting cooperation among the villagers to
>>>> unite behind a community project. Customs are ancient and really
>>>> shouldn't be messed with by outsiders. If individuals want to do
>>>> something, that is their business, but outsiders should not try to
>>>> force things on a community because it would be "good for them"
>>>> (unfortunately things like potable water, sanitation, power,
>>>> communications, and the like fall into these categories). Maybe
>>>> when groups of children involved in the OLPC project finish their
>>>> educations and come back as doctors, nurses, engineers, and the
>>>> like, it will change. If, and it is a big if, they can be
>>>> convinced to come back.
>>>>
>>>> OK...enough of my rambling and ranting...here is what I really
>>>> wanted to write about...
>>>>
>>>> What do you know about vertical axis wind turbines like the
>>>> Savonius wind turbines? Here is a link to a wikipedia article
>>>> about them:
>>>>
>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savonius_wind_turbine
>>>>
>>>> There are lots of sites about them on the web...some with plans for
>>>> ones you can build. One even uses an old 55 gal oil drum cut in
>>>> half. Would these need a tower to work?
>>>>
>>>> Caryl
>>>>
>>>> Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 01:56:31 -0400
>>>> From: info at olpc-peru.info <mailto:info at olpc-peru.info>
>>>> To: cbigenho at hotmail.com <mailto:cbigenho at hotmail.com>
>>>> CC: josh at laptop.org <mailto:josh at laptop.org>;
>>>> arjunsarwal at gmail.com <mailto:arjunsarwal at gmail.com>;
>>>> carla at laptop.org <mailto:carla at laptop.org>;
>>>> peripherals at lists.laptop.org
>>>> <mailto:peripherals at lists.laptop.org>; hbonwit at alumni.nd.edu
>>>> <mailto:hbonwit at alumni.nd.edu>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peripherals] Alternitive Power for Developing
>>>> Countries
>>>>
>>>> Wind? No problem: you store the produced energy in batteries that
>>>> will feed your devices during the whole day.
>>>>
>>>> Some rules for wind powered projects:
>>>>
>>>> a) You need more than 8 miles per hour to produce energy for a
>>>> home.
>>>> b) You will need a tower. Don't trust the mills at the top of
>>>> the house or similar designs. You need a tower 2.5 times bigger
>>>> than the nearest building or tree. Normally you need a 10 meters
>>>> tower (30 feet aprox).
>>>> c) Ask the people that lives in the area.
>>>> d) Check some of the trees... if they are growing with some
>>>> evident tendency (right sided, left sided) then you can be sure
>>>> that there is some useful winds in the area.
>>>> e) Wind mills use low RPM alternators if they want to be very
>>>> efficient. f) It is more efficient to set up the
>>>> rotor/alternator/generator
>>>> in a direct connection to the "turning wheel" at the top of the
>>>> tower. Setting up a pulley system at the top and the
>>>> rotor/alternator/generator at the bottom of the tower is not so
>>>> efficient (there is lack of energy).
>>>> g) Winds are not constant, they change according to the hours of
>>>> the day and the months of the year.
>>>> h) In some areas of Peru there is huge resistance to introduce
>>>> any wind mill to extract water from the soil because they see
>>>> like a weird behavior to take the "blood" from the soil when
>>>> mother nature doesn't want to provide it in a natural way (like a
>>>> river). In old times (around 20 years ago) there was a group of
>>>> Dutch engineers that was killed in Puno area (the peasants
>>>> warned... don't suck the "blood" from the soil... they smile and
>>>> they were confident that when the population see the water
>>>> running they will be more than happy... nope. They were killed
>>>> and buried.). Cultural things matter. Ask local people, get the
>>>> approval of the community BEFORE you start any study. Mining
>>>> areas are the most difficult because the past role that have
>>>> develop the mines in those areas during more than 500 years).
>>>> i) There are many NGOs in Peru that have studied the issue (about
>>>> alternative source energy). But the problem keeps the same: all
>>>> those areas are without energy. I think is due to the size of
>>>> the problem (80,000 villages, 5 million people). There is not
>>>> budget that can provide enough help. If this is right (I am not
>>>> sure) then we need to think in lowering and lowering costs for
>>>> wind mills and let that the people of the village buy the plans
>>>> and spare parts to assembly its own solution (if that is a wind
>>>> mill then fine, if it is a "energy" pedaling device... is fine
>>>> too!). If we provide spare parts, plans and it is a easy and
>>>> understandable design then they (the people) can appropriate the
>>>> idea and getting bigger and bigger results by themselves. One
>>>> village past the voice to other one (mouth radio).
>>>>
>>>> Best regards,
>>>>
>>>> Javier Rodriguez
>>>> Lima, Peru
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Caryl Bigenho wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi PowerPeople!
>>>>
>>>> Javier and I are really "singing the same song". His
>>>> spinning wheel parts are very similar to my proposed sewing
>>>> machine treadle. The principle is the same. His wonderful
>>>> table design is just about what I had in mind for my used
>>>> sewing machine mechanism.
>>>>
>>>> I don't see any problem having children use them at home.
>>>> every child could have their own and simply pedal as he/she
>>>> uses the laptop. It would be fun, like a learning toy, and
>>>> that is just how they make it work. Not child labor at
>>>> all...just part of a learning game!
>>>>
>>>> There is, however, value in using something else at school
>>>> for a more centralized power source. That is where a large
>>>> solar power, windmill, water wheel or animal driven generator
>>>> would be practical.
>>>>
>>>> We need to try some of these ideas with working prototypes
>>>> and see how practical they would be. I hope to find an old
>>>> sewing machine when I get to Montana in a few weeks.
>>>> I may also have a chance to try something with a windmill.
>>>> What exactly is the problem with windmills at higher
>>>> elevations? Why won't they work? If I can get a small one,
>>>> I might have a chance to test it at about 3350 meters, 2000
>>>> meters for sure.
>>>>
>>>> Caryl in Southern California...soon to be Montana for a while.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 23:47:22 -0400
>>>> From: info at olpc-peru.info <mailto:info at olpc-peru.info>
>>>> To: josh at laptop.org <mailto:josh at laptop.org>
>>>> CC: arjunsarwal at gmail.com <mailto:arjunsarwal at gmail.com>;
>>>> carla at laptop.org <mailto:carla at laptop.org>;
>>>> peripherals at lists.laptop.org
>>>> <mailto:peripherals at lists.laptop.org>;
>>>> hbonwit at alumni.nd.edu <mailto:hbonwit at alumni.nd.edu>
>>>> Subject: Re: [Peripherals] Alternitive Power for
>>>> Developing Countries
>>>>
>>>> Hello Josh and all,
>>>>
>>>> >Personally, I think the power requirements for the XO is
>>>> too high for children to charge them. Yes, I'm sure
>>>> something can be created that children could operate -
>>>> but is this scalable and long term? Do we think that
>>>> children are going to want to do this everyday throughout
>>>> their entire education?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Getting enough energy for a standard laptop from the
>>>> pedaling in a bicycle is possible (check YouTube.com...
>>>> there are many working examples). Even the most
>>>> optimistic calculation or test that has been done shows
>>>> that is possible to do a fast pedaling for a short period
>>>> of time, then you are done and need some rest. That is
>>>> due that you are moving the whole leg to produce the
>>>> rotation. And that kind of high "torque" is needed
>>>> because you are moving and object AND you are moving a
>>>> heavy weight (yourself). Not just moving a rotor against
>>>> a "perfect" rolling surface (pulley and internal parts of
>>>> the alternator).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Then you have the other side of the coin: with spinning
>>>> wheels (that have been used by centuries) you move JUST
>>>> your foot (right or left) not the whole leg. People has
>>>> been able to do this hours and hours without showing any
>>>> sight of damage or getting tired in the effort (I know
>>>> this from first hand because I have develop groups of
>>>> spinners and knitters in the high andes for projects
>>>> developed in mining zones, all of them using spinning
>>>> wheels moved by the foot).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Our kids, peruvians, andean kids, are used to very hard
>>>> working conditions (most of them know very well how to
>>>> wake up at 5:00 am and push the sheep herd to the field,
>>>> that coould be walking around 3 to 5 miles each day...
>>>> then coming back to the house around 5 p.m. They do this
>>>> when there is no school or when the school just work 1
>>>> week in the month or when they have to walk more than 2
>>>> hours to go to the school (everyday) or when the teacher
>>>> is out in the bigger nearest village). That happens in
>>>> the towns and villages over the 3,500 meters altitude
>>>> (80,000 tows and villages with a total of 5 million
>>>> people there), not in the small villages located at 2,500
>>>> meters altitude (this are the ones that you can reach
>>>> easily and have schools and teachers and kids that look
>>>> at your eyes like very poor children but are the not the
>>>> ones that are in the worst conditions). Any peruvian kid
>>>> that lives in the high andes, at 2,500 or at 3,500 meters
>>>> altitude, will look at the "pedaling" device in a
>>>> spinning wheel like a toy, like at totally integrated
>>>> part of the "cost/benefit" system, and only the spoiled
>>>> ones will refuse to do it (there are "spoiled" children
>>>> in any culture, time and economic condition).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If that is too hard to accept (seeing as "children work"
>>>> or any form of "slavery") then we have to think that the
>>>> ones that will use the "spinning wheels" will be the
>>>> teacher, fathers, bigger brothers that can understand
>>>> that they will benefit from generating its own energy and
>>>> that is depending on them and not in the force of the
>>>> nature (wind, water).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >I think what is most important is to determine the
>>>> sources of potential energy in areas that need it, then
>>>> design technology to utilize that.
>>>>
>>>> > Javier I think you have mentioned that both water, wind
>>>> and sun are too variable to design a cost effective
>>>> system around. Can you think of energy sources that are
>>>> readily available in these areas that could be utilized?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some person have talk about energy from potatoes. Yes,
>>>> why not. And from corn and soy and many other vegetables
>>>> too. It is named as "eco-oil" or "bio-oils"... but...
>>>> there is huge controversy about how much "conventional
>>>> energy sources" are spend to produce this "bio-oils".
>>>> Furthermore, there is huge movement against using what
>>>> the people eats in poor countries to produce "sustainable
>>>> oils" for use in the first world. Example: in my
>>>> country, Peru, the government has said that the rise on
>>>> the price of some food products is due to the rise of the
>>>> corn and soy in U.S. and Brazil. I have talk about this
>>>> too much with my own government but without success
>>>> (politic stuff is not always related to the law of the
>>>> economy and sometimes is due to personal conditions in
>>>> managing some issues).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Some kind of a more integral aproach could be used:
>>>> generating energy from the gas that comes from composting
>>>> the rest of the agricultural production and the lefts of
>>>> the animals. But that involves much more money than
>>>> getting, modifying, and installing some number of
>>>> spinning wheels.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >You don't happen to have an abundance of zinc ore in Peru
>>>> do you?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Zinc? Sure. Lots. I don't have information about
>>>> producing energy from Zinc. But... that is a work for a
>>>> mining company, zinc is not in the form of small rocks
>>>> that you can pick up in the surface. You need to dig,
>>>> melt, separate and refine. Then you are a huge mining
>>>> company.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Best regards and thanks for your interest in the issue.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Javier Rodriguez
>>>> Lima, Peru
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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>>>
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>>
>>
>
--
Mike Dawson
Deputy CEO
PAIWASTOON Networking Services Ltd.
Email: mike at paiwastoon.com.af
Phone: +93 (798) 258 092
VOIP: +44 (161) 408 3048
Skype: mike.dawson
PAIWASTOON Networking Services Ltd.
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