[Peripherals] Alternitive Power for Developing Countries
info at olpc-peru.info
info at olpc-peru.info
Sun May 11 21:04:33 EDT 2008
Hello Mike,
Yes you can use A LOT of the parts of old cars and vehicles. They are,
without doubt, very usefull to "transform" them in wind, water, human or
animal driven generators (or alternators).
Our problem in Peru is that we will install 245,000 computers (XOs).
And it is not possible to find that number of "2nd hand" devices (here
in Peru). So we must plan something based on "new parts".
Regarding some "energy or electricity devices" that came from "not
occidental" countries in old times ...
a) We have the famous "Baghdad Batteries" ("In 1938 Wilhelm Konig, the
director of antiquities at the Iraq Museum in Baghdad, found four
unglazed ceramic vessels in a grave that was dated in the time of the
Parthians occupation of the area (248 BC-226 AD). Three vessels had
copper cylinders made of copper sheet with a copper end that was
lead-soldered to the bottom of the cylinders. One of these vessels had
an iron spike inside the copper cylinder, with the remains of an
asphalt-like plug, ... the vessels looked like galvanic cells..." You
can see a "working reconstruction" of the Baghdad batteries in You
Tube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlFZ4h4RUwE And you can find more
info here: http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13653279
<http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13653279> and here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baghdad_Battery
b) Some similar vessels were found by Jacques Costeau in the
Meditterranean Sea (many meters deep in the water).
c) There are arguments that these devices produce so few energy... but
then we need to read the old ancient indian books (similar to our
Bible).. one of them explains that you can "attach" some of this vessels
to produce energy... so we have artifacts in one place (Baghdad) and
explanation in other place (Hindu sacred books) that the old people know
how to install them in a "serial" way to produce enough power. Then, by
some reason, we the occidental world, lost this knowledge. We recover
it with Alexander Volta in year 1800. Then we got the help of the so
great giants as Nikola Tesla and Thomas Edison in the first years of the
20th century.
d) "Hero's engine was a primitive steam-driven machine found in Egypt,
and like the battery of Baghdad, no one is quite sure what it was used
for, but are convinced it could work."...
(http://www.world-mysteries.com/sar_11.htm This link as a lot of useful
info about the Baghdad batteries too).
e) "Thales of Miletus <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales> wrote in the
6th century BC <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_century_BC> that
rubbing fur <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur> on various substances,
such as amber <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amber>, would cause a
particular attraction <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attraction> between
the two, which is now known as static electricity
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatics>. The Greeks noted that the
amber buttons could attract light objects such as hair
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hair> and that if they rubbed the amber
for long enough they could even get a spark
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spark> to jump"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_electricity)
I recognize in full that the old civilizations were very advanced in
many areas. Great to know that in Afghanistan there were such great
things like the wind mills. History is written by the winners but that
is not all the history.
Best regards,
Javier Rodriguez
Lima, Peru
Mike Dawson wrote:
> Hey,
>
>
> I've just been browsing through - need to check through this in quite
> a bit more depth - but would very likely have one built here put it on
> our roof (our house is pretty tall) and see how it works on our roof
> (here in Kabul, Afghanistan). The other thing we really need to find
> out is how it deals with / has difficulties with dust.
>
>
> One issue I see here is it is often possible to find somewhere nearby
> that has some height - however in running the cable we either loose
> the money on the cost of the copper...
>
>
> Maybe we can find some ways that we can use scrap vehicles etc for
> conductors / towers? If we take a nice thick section of scrap vehicle
> that could allow us to run the power further without resistance
> problems as long as it isn't rusted through - perhaps to some nearby
> point a bit higher up. We have plenty of those around (old buses,
> soviet tanks, abandoned cars, etc.). Not sure if other countries have
> such a great supply of those but we sure do... In that case we would
> need something like a 'construction squad' that would have a big
> generator for welding equipment.
>
>
> Would love to try it out - as a matter of trivia - as far as I am
> aware the first recorded device to harness wind energy for human needs
> was in Herat, Western Afghanistan (according to 1001 inventions from
> the Islamic World /
> http://muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=328) - so would
> be great if we can do some experiments in the 'home' of wind Energy...
>
>
> I look forward to reading what happens in Peru...
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
> -Mike
>
>
> info at olpc-peru.info wrote:
>
>> Hello Caryl,
>>
>> Wind is fine, Savonius is fine. Everything works but with its own
>> limitations (and advantages!)
>>
>> From the same article that you tell us about:
>> "Much of the swept area of a Savonius rotor is near the ground,
>> making the overall energy extraction less effective due to lower wind
>> speed at lower heights."
>>
>> Yes, more height then you get more wind. You need 8 mph to get
>> enough wind energy to supply a house energy requirements. You can
>> find this kind of winds at 10 meters (30 feet) over the soil
>> surface. When we speak that you need some "heigth" we don't mean
>> "altitude". There are windy places in the peruvian coast (at 3 feet
>> altitude) and there are windy places in the high andes (at 15,000
>> feet altitude and more). In both cases you need to get more "height"
>> from the soil surface (those 10 meters or 30 feet)... then you need a
>> tower. Yes, I know some places (you must know some too) that at soil
>> level you have strong winds, but normally we need to setup the wind
>> mill near to a house or school... and that school is in the middle of
>> a city or village... then, thumb rule applies, you need a tower that
>> is 2.5 times (height) than the houses and trees in the area.
>> Furthermore, villages are build in "protected" places (in the middle
>> of valleys tipically... ) not in the top of the surrounding
>> mountains... so we need to study every case, but in general terms, if
>> you need serious and more steady stream of wind then we need a tower
>> (unlucky we are... because the tower cost money, big and important
>> money).
>>
>> 600 RPM is what the normal small car alternators require to produce
>> energy. So... we have two options: or we get alternators that need
>> lower RMP (easier) or we get a method to provide more RPM with human
>> movement (harder). To get (build) low RPM alternators we need to do
>> the next :
>> a) Get bigger magnets (or more magnets).
>> b) Install bigger (or more!) copper coils.
>> c) Get more speed on the "turning" of the pulley/rotor in the alternator
>> d) A combination of all the previous options.
>>
>> "Savonius turbines are used whenever cost or reliability is much more
>> important than efficiency."
>>
>> Sure. They are less expensive because there is no tower to build.
>> It can be mounted in the top of a roof. The issue is that we need to
>> test (aritmetically) what kind of gadget (pulleys and rotors,
>> transformation rate of one gear to the another one) we will connect
>> to the Savonius wind mill. IF we get a very low RPM alternator then
>> it would be possible to combine with a Savonius wind mill mounted in
>> a normal roof (no tower needed).
>>
>> I guess that we will end talking/thinking/looking for the spare parts
>> so we (all) can build our own electromagnet generator (alternator).
>>
>> Best regards,
>>
>> Javier Rodriguez
>> Lima, Peru
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Caryl Bigenho wrote:
>>> Hi Javier,
>>>
>>> Yes, I definitely agree that the folks using the technology should
>>> be able to choose what they want and to participate in its
>>> construction. If they can just be given simple plans for devices
>>> they can construct at a modest cost, and that will work for them, it
>>> would be wonderful.
>>> This would also take away some of the suspicion the folks have of
>>> outsiders who want to get them to do something new and different.
>>> Your tale about the water wells was interesting and a good
>>> illustration of this suspicion. I could tell similar tales of
>>> folks in Bolivia who won't accept health care, from a medical doctor
>>> from the Catholic church who has lived among them for decades, when
>>> a child becomes ill with a potentially fatal but easily cured
>>> disease. They say it is God's will whether the child lives or dies
>>> and they don't want to interfere. Many children die needlessly.
>>>
>>> There is also a political concern. If the small villages of Peru
>>> are anything like the ones in Bolivia (they probably are), there is
>>> a lot of difficulty getting cooperation among the villagers to unite
>>> behind a community project. Customs are ancient and really
>>> shouldn't be messed with by outsiders. If individuals want to do
>>> something, that is their business, but outsiders should not try to
>>> force things on a community because it would be "good for them"
>>> (unfortunately things like potable water, sanitation, power,
>>> communications, and the like fall into these categories). Maybe when
>>> groups of children involved in the OLPC project finish their
>>> educations and come back as doctors, nurses, engineers, and the
>>> like, it will change. If, and it is a big if, they can be
>>> convinced to come back.
>>>
>>> OK...enough of my rambling and ranting...here is what I really
>>> wanted to write about...
>>>
>>> What do you know about vertical axis wind turbines like the Savonius
>>> wind turbines? Here is a link to a wikipedia article about them:
>>>
>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Savonius_wind_turbine
>>>
>>> There are lots of sites about them on the web...some with plans for
>>> ones you can build. One even uses an old 55 gal oil drum cut in
>>> half. Would these need a tower to work?
>>>
>>> Caryl
>>>
>>> Date: Sat, 10 May 2008 01:56:31 -0400
>>> From: info at olpc-peru.info <mailto:info at olpc-peru.info>
>>> To: cbigenho at hotmail.com <mailto:cbigenho at hotmail.com>
>>> CC: josh at laptop.org <mailto:josh at laptop.org>;
>>> arjunsarwal at gmail.com <mailto:arjunsarwal at gmail.com>;
>>> carla at laptop.org <mailto:carla at laptop.org>;
>>> peripherals at lists.laptop.org
>>> <mailto:peripherals at lists.laptop.org>; hbonwit at alumni.nd.edu
>>> <mailto:hbonwit at alumni.nd.edu>
>>> Subject: Re: [Peripherals] Alternitive Power for Developing
>>> Countries
>>>
>>> Wind? No problem: you store the produced energy in batteries that
>>> will feed your devices during the whole day.
>>>
>>> Some rules for wind powered projects:
>>>
>>> a) You need more than 8 miles per hour to produce energy for a
>>> home.
>>> b) You will need a tower. Don't trust the mills at the top of
>>> the house or similar designs. You need a tower 2.5 times bigger
>>> than the nearest building or tree. Normally you need a 10 meters
>>> tower (30 feet aprox).
>>> c) Ask the people that lives in the area.
>>> d) Check some of the trees... if they are growing with some
>>> evident tendency (right sided, left sided) then you can be sure
>>> that there is some useful winds in the area.
>>> e) Wind mills use low RPM alternators if they want to be very
>>> efficient. f) It is more efficient to set up the
>>> rotor/alternator/generator
>>> in a direct connection to the "turning wheel" at the top of the
>>> tower. Setting up a pulley system at the top and the
>>> rotor/alternator/generator at the bottom of the tower is not so
>>> efficient (there is lack of energy).
>>> g) Winds are not constant, they change according to the hours of
>>> the day and the months of the year.
>>> h) In some areas of Peru there is huge resistance to introduce
>>> any wind mill to extract water from the soil because they see
>>> like a weird behavior to take the "blood" from the soil when
>>> mother nature doesn't want to provide it in a natural way (like a
>>> river). In old times (around 20 years ago) there was a group of
>>> Dutch engineers that was killed in Puno area (the peasants
>>> warned... don't suck the "blood" from the soil... they smile and
>>> they were confident that when the population see the water
>>> running they will be more than happy... nope. They were killed
>>> and buried.). Cultural things matter. Ask local people, get the
>>> approval of the community BEFORE you start any study. Mining
>>> areas are the most difficult because the past role that have
>>> develop the mines in those areas during more than 500 years).
>>> i) There are many NGOs in Peru that have studied the issue (about
>>> alternative source energy). But the problem keeps the same: all
>>> those areas are without energy. I think is due to the size of
>>> the problem (80,000 villages, 5 million people). There is not
>>> budget that can provide enough help. If this is right (I am not
>>> sure) then we need to think in lowering and lowering costs for
>>> wind mills and let that the people of the village buy the plans
>>> and spare parts to assembly its own solution (if that is a wind
>>> mill then fine, if it is a "energy" pedaling device... is fine
>>> too!). If we provide spare parts, plans and it is a easy and
>>> understandable design then they (the people) can appropriate the
>>> idea and getting bigger and bigger results by themselves. One
>>> village past the voice to other one (mouth radio).
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>>
>>> Javier Rodriguez
>>> Lima, Peru
>>>
>>>
>>> Caryl Bigenho wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi PowerPeople!
>>>
>>> Javier and I are really "singing the same song". His
>>> spinning wheel parts are very similar to my proposed sewing
>>> machine treadle. The principle is the same. His wonderful
>>> table design is just about what I had in mind for my used
>>> sewing machine mechanism.
>>>
>>> I don't see any problem having children use them at home.
>>> every child could have their own and simply pedal as he/she
>>> uses the laptop. It would be fun, like a learning toy, and
>>> that is just how they make it work. Not child labor at
>>> all...just part of a learning game!
>>>
>>> There is, however, value in using something else at school
>>> for a more centralized power source. That is where a large
>>> solar power, windmill, water wheel or animal driven generator
>>> would be practical.
>>>
>>> We need to try some of these ideas with working prototypes
>>> and see how practical they would be. I hope to find an old
>>> sewing machine when I get to Montana in a few weeks.
>>> I may also have a chance to try something with a windmill.
>>> What exactly is the problem with windmills at higher
>>> elevations? Why won't they work? If I can get a small one,
>>> I might have a chance to test it at about 3350 meters, 2000
>>> meters for sure.
>>>
>>> Caryl in Southern California...soon to be Montana for a while.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Date: Fri, 9 May 2008 23:47:22 -0400
>>> From: info at olpc-peru.info <mailto:info at olpc-peru.info>
>>> To: josh at laptop.org <mailto:josh at laptop.org>
>>> CC: arjunsarwal at gmail.com <mailto:arjunsarwal at gmail.com>;
>>> carla at laptop.org <mailto:carla at laptop.org>;
>>> peripherals at lists.laptop.org
>>> <mailto:peripherals at lists.laptop.org>;
>>> hbonwit at alumni.nd.edu <mailto:hbonwit at alumni.nd.edu>
>>> Subject: Re: [Peripherals] Alternitive Power for
>>> Developing Countries
>>>
>>> Hello Josh and all,
>>>
>>> >Personally, I think the power requirements for the XO is
>>> too high for children to charge them. Yes, I'm sure
>>> something can be created that children could operate -
>>> but is this scalable and long term? Do we think that
>>> children are going to want to do this everyday throughout
>>> their entire education?
>>>
>>>
>>> Getting enough energy for a standard laptop from the
>>> pedaling in a bicycle is possible (check YouTube.com...
>>> there are many working examples). Even the most
>>> optimistic calculation or test that has been done shows
>>> that is possible to do a fast pedaling for a short period
>>> of time, then you are done and need some rest. That is
>>> due that you are moving the whole leg to produce the
>>> rotation. And that kind of high "torque" is needed
>>> because you are moving and object AND you are moving a
>>> heavy weight (yourself). Not just moving a rotor against
>>> a "perfect" rolling surface (pulley and internal parts of
>>> the alternator).
>>>
>>>
>>> Then you have the other side of the coin: with spinning
>>> wheels (that have been used by centuries) you move JUST
>>> your foot (right or left) not the whole leg. People has
>>> been able to do this hours and hours without showing any
>>> sight of damage or getting tired in the effort (I know
>>> this from first hand because I have develop groups of
>>> spinners and knitters in the high andes for projects
>>> developed in mining zones, all of them using spinning
>>> wheels moved by the foot).
>>>
>>>
>>> Our kids, peruvians, andean kids, are used to very hard
>>> working conditions (most of them know very well how to
>>> wake up at 5:00 am and push the sheep herd to the field,
>>> that coould be walking around 3 to 5 miles each day...
>>> then coming back to the house around 5 p.m. They do this
>>> when there is no school or when the school just work 1
>>> week in the month or when they have to walk more than 2
>>> hours to go to the school (everyday) or when the teacher
>>> is out in the bigger nearest village). That happens in
>>> the towns and villages over the 3,500 meters altitude
>>> (80,000 tows and villages with a total of 5 million
>>> people there), not in the small villages located at 2,500
>>> meters altitude (this are the ones that you can reach
>>> easily and have schools and teachers and kids that look
>>> at your eyes like very poor children but are the not the
>>> ones that are in the worst conditions). Any peruvian kid
>>> that lives in the high andes, at 2,500 or at 3,500 meters
>>> altitude, will look at the "pedaling" device in a
>>> spinning wheel like a toy, like at totally integrated
>>> part of the "cost/benefit" system, and only the spoiled
>>> ones will refuse to do it (there are "spoiled" children
>>> in any culture, time and economic condition).
>>>
>>>
>>> If that is too hard to accept (seeing as "children work"
>>> or any form of "slavery") then we have to think that the
>>> ones that will use the "spinning wheels" will be the
>>> teacher, fathers, bigger brothers that can understand
>>> that they will benefit from generating its own energy and
>>> that is depending on them and not in the force of the
>>> nature (wind, water).
>>>
>>>
>>> >I think what is most important is to determine the
>>> sources of potential energy in areas that need it, then
>>> design technology to utilize that.
>>>
>>> > Javier I think you have mentioned that both water, wind
>>> and sun are too variable to design a cost effective
>>> system around. Can you think of energy sources that are
>>> readily available in these areas that could be utilized?
>>>
>>>
>>> Some person have talk about energy from potatoes. Yes,
>>> why not. And from corn and soy and many other vegetables
>>> too. It is named as "eco-oil" or "bio-oils"... but...
>>> there is huge controversy about how much "conventional
>>> energy sources" are spend to produce this "bio-oils".
>>> Furthermore, there is huge movement against using what
>>> the people eats in poor countries to produce "sustainable
>>> oils" for use in the first world. Example: in my
>>> country, Peru, the government has said that the rise on
>>> the price of some food products is due to the rise of the
>>> corn and soy in U.S. and Brazil. I have talk about this
>>> too much with my own government but without success
>>> (politic stuff is not always related to the law of the
>>> economy and sometimes is due to personal conditions in
>>> managing some issues).
>>>
>>>
>>> Some kind of a more integral aproach could be used:
>>> generating energy from the gas that comes from composting
>>> the rest of the agricultural production and the lefts of
>>> the animals. But that involves much more money than
>>> getting, modifying, and installing some number of
>>> spinning wheels.
>>>
>>>
>>> >You don't happen to have an abundance of zinc ore in Peru
>>> do you?
>>>
>>>
>>> Zinc? Sure. Lots. I don't have information about
>>> producing energy from Zinc. But... that is a work for a
>>> mining company, zinc is not in the form of small rocks
>>> that you can pick up in the surface. You need to dig,
>>> melt, separate and refine. Then you are a huge mining
>>> company.
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards and thanks for your interest in the issue.
>>>
>>>
>>> Javier Rodriguez
>>> Lima, Peru
>>>
>>>
>>>
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>>
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