[Sur] [IAEP] [Localization] Traducciones de Sugar al español

Carlos Rabassa carnen en mac.com
Mar Abr 12 17:34:52 EDT 2011 

Ed,

Thanks for your detailed comments to my message.

I´m afraid there are as many opinions on the subject of languages and translations as individuals on earth.

I don´t claim to have a solution.

My opinion and suggestion come from the difference I note,  between my times as a student and today.

Decades ago,  college professors would recommend books,  many of them in foreign languages.

If they were in German or Russian they would warn us about the language.

If they were in English, French or Italian they would just recommend the books without any comment.

We assumed we had to read them.  Period.

Today,  most students make a big issue if you suggest they read something that is not in Spanish.





Now here and today,  what is your specific recommendation about languages and translations in the elementary and high school XO environment?

Please consider we have a lot of people to reach with knowledge,  not only young kids.

Also those kids today want to learn about the XO but tomorrow they will be working in many fields of activity.  Living in a small country in a globalized world they will most probably have to deal with foreigners coming to Uruguay or travel to foreign countries.  How would they handle then the language problem?  Wouldn´t it be good if while they learn about the XO they could pick up a foreign language instead of using translations?

How would you advise the  many excellent middle aged uruguayan teachers who want to learn to write applications for the XO and know no other language than Spanish?

How would you handle the same situation for young teachers?

How do you propose to take advantage of the programs written in Nepal?


I heard your disagreement with several points.

I shouldn´t have expected anything different because I just offered one personal opinion,  mine.

Now it would be nice to hear your positive suggestions.

Thanks.


Carlos Rabassa
Volunteer
Plan Ceibal Support Network
Montevideo, Uruguay



On Apr 12, 2011, at 5:29 PM, Edward Cherlin wrote:

> 2011/4/12 Carlos Rabassa <carnen en mac.com>:
>> English translation follows Spanish original
>> Gonzalo,  Hernán, Ana,
>> estoy parcialmente de acuerdo con cada uno de ustedes a pesar de que sus
>> opiniones parecen contradictorias.
>> Nos guste o no,  el lenguaje de los programadores, desarrolladores y muchas
>> otras actividades en el campo de la informática,  es el Inglés.
>> Negar este hecho es cerrarse las puertas y cerrárselas a los jóvenes
>> estudiantes,  que tendrán dificultad para acceder a lo que se produce fuera
>> de Uruguay.
>> Son ideas que conducen a aislar el país en un mundo que,  nos guste o no,
>>  es globalizado.
>> Pienso que los que desean estudiar informática en serio tienen que estudiar
>> Inglés aún más en serio y muy rápido.
>> Traducir programas,  manuales y otras cosas es necesario hoy,  cuando muchos
>> no pueden leer el Inglés.
>> Pero esa ayuda tan interesante,  útil y generosa,  no es la solución del
>> problema básico.
>> Las traducciones las veo como las muletas que usan los que se rompieron una
>> pierna.
>> No se rehusan a ir a un hospital a que se la arreglen.
>> Tan pronto como pueden se hacen arreglar la pierna rota.
>> Usan las muletas nada más que mientras el arreglo que les hizo el médico en
>> el hospital surte su efecto y la pierna se les cura.
>> Y por el momento,  hay que traducir,  si deseamos que todos lean lo que
>> escribimos:
>> 
>> 
>> English translation
>> Gonzalo,  Hernán, Ana,
>> I partially agree with each one of you,  although your opinions seem to
>> contradict each other.
>> Whether or not we like it,  English is the language used by programmers,
>> developers and in many other areas of computer science.
> 
> Today. We are bringing up a generation of new programmers by means of
> OLPC who will program in Spanish and in dozens of other languages.
> There exist valuable educational programs from OLPC Nepal that have
> not been translated to English, and there will be much more of this
> problem.
> 
>> Denying this fact means closing the doors for us and for the young students.
>>  They will have problems to reach resources from outside Uruguay.
> 
> Plan CEIBAL has produced a vast volume of materials not made available
> in English.
> 
>> These ideas lead to the isolation of our country in a world that,  whether
>> or not we like it,  is globalized.
>> I believe serious computer science students should study English even more
>> seriously and very fast.
> 
> True, but not relevant to the problems of localization and translation
> for Sugar.
> 
>> Today it is necessary to translate programs,  manuals and other materials,
>>  when many of us cannot read English.
>> But this help,  so interesting, useful and generous,  is not the solution to
>> the basic problem.
> 
> Of course not. Is it not obvious that the solution involves teaching a
> billion children at a time in any and every language that they
> require? and that many of those children, as they learn other
> languages, will have to take on the responsibility for translating
> materials to the instructional languages of their countries, to the
> official languages of their countries, and to the local languages of
> their communities? For example, English is the language of instruction
> in Kenya, Swahili the national language, and the Maa language of the
> Maasai one of many local languages.
> 
>> I visualize translations as the crutches used by those who had a fractured
>> leg.
>> They do not refuse going to a hospital and having it fixed.
>> They get it fixed as soon as they can.
>> They only use the crutches while the repair made by the doctor at the
>> hospital, goes through its process and the leg heals.
> 
> Your simile falls down. Our children did not break their legs. In
> fact, preschool children can become fluent in a new language in a few
> months, as I observed an immigrant friend do in kindergarten. Our
> problem is that we wait too long to begin teaching them, and do not
> immerse them in the new language when we start.
> 
>> For the time being,  translate we must,  if we expect everyone to read what
>> we write:
> 
> And forever. Once we succeed in teaching children to learn and to work
> in hundreds of languages, we will still have to translate those new
> materials to all languages required.
> 
> English is not the issue. Having 6,909 documented languages in the
> world is the issue. (ethnologue.com)
> 
> Note: I am among a number of people organizing translation projects
> for Sugar software and for digital textbook replacements, at FLOSS
> Manuals, Sugar Labs, and elsewhere. We are emphasizing Spanish to
> start with, but will branch out widely as fast as we can. I would be
> happy to arrange for hosting Spanish-to-English-to other languages
> projects at Sugar Labs.
> 
>> Carlos Rabassa
>> Volunteer
>> Plan Ceibal Support Network
>> Montevideo, Uruguay
>> 
>> 
>> On Apr 12, 2011, at 1:42 AM, ana.cichero wrote:
>> 
>> Qué opinión curiosa....
>> Te cuento una experiencia, 1er año liceo 2010 centro de Montevideo ( 12, 13,
>> 14 años),  vienen los estudiantes de ingeniería ( alumnos de gabriel eirea )
>> en tarea de extensión a darnos clase de python.  En mis grupos decidimos
>> analizar el ejemplo de guess a number del pippy y representarlo, un chico
>> era el counter, otro la compu y otro el usuario.  ( teniamos solo 90 minutos
>> en total)
>> 
>> Hubo gran dificultad en enteder las palabras: red, black, blue.....
>> Imaginarse  el resto  de los textos en inglé !!  Hay que hacer buenas
>> actividades para aprender inglés, pero hay que traducir sugar en mi opinión.
>> 
>> En concreto de Pippy(los relativos a matemática o funciones) tengo los
>> ejemplos con los printy en general lo necesario para que se entienda ya
>> traducido.  Los mando a quien se haga cargo del tema.
>> -----LLeva mucho trabajo-----
>> El manual de Sugar que me ocupa ( y que pensaba terminar a fin de abril) ,
>> va por la mitad-1....  y creo que pronto voy a tener que  poner una pausa de
>> un par de meses por motivos de trabajos nuevos:)
>> 
>> copio acá el ejemplo guess tal y como se carga en una xo configurada con
>> español como idioma, saludos !
>> 
>> 
>> import random
>> import pippy
>> R = random.randrange(1,100)
>> 
>> print "Guess a number between 1 and 100!"
>> N = input("Enter a number: ")
>> i=1
>> while (N!=R):
>> if N>R:
>> pippy.console.red()
>> print "Too big... try again"
>> else:
>> pippy.console.blue()
>> print "Too small.. try again"
>> pippy.console.black()
>> N = input("Enter a number: ")
>> i=i+1
>> print "You got it in", i, "tries"
>> 
>> En concreto de Pippy tengo ejemplos donde los print están traducidos y en
>> general lo necesario para que se entienda.
>> 
>> 
>> 2011/2/10 Hernan Pachas <hernan.pachas en gmail.com>
>>> 
>>> Sugar no debe tener traducción (es mi opinión).
>>> 
>>> ---hernan
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 2011/2/10 Gonzalo Odiard <gonzalo en laptop.org>:
>>>> Otro tema que deberiamos acordar es la traduccion de Sugar a "Azucar".
>>>> Creo que no debería hacerse, pero me gustaría acordarlo con quienes han
>>>> hecho la traducción en primer lugar.
>>>> 
>>>> Gonzalo
>>>> 
>>>> 
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>>>> 
>>>> 
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> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Edward Mokurai (默雷/धरà¥à¤®à¤®à¥‡à¤˜à¤¶à¤¬à¥à¤¦à¤—रà¥à¤œ/دھرممیگھشبدگر ج) Cherlin
> Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
> The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
> http://www.earthtreasury.org/

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