[Localization] [Sur] TamTam activity Spanish locales

Sat Jul 2 00:44:43 EDT 2011

On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:50 PM, Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com> wrote:

>  Chris,
>
> Yes that makes sense, as long as the terms chosen in English are standard
> ones that would be recognized by musicians anywhere. If students are going
> to learn names of instruments, they might as well be "real" names.  There is
> no need to "teach down" to children.  Any child is a potential serious
> musician and, certainly (we hope) a future "consumer" of music.  If they
> learn some non-standard local term they will probably need to learn the
> correct term eventually. If education is our objective, start with the real
> stuff and add the other later if you like.
>
> So, I might suggest a compromise. Use the standard term a musician would
> use in the local language (example *violin* in English = *violine* in
> German = バイオリン (pronounced "*violin*") in Japanese = *violín* in
> Spansih.... etc).  So, what is a "fiddle"  it is an English word for a *
> violin* played in a particular style.  It is still a *violin*.  For local
> folk instruments such as the quena  call it a quena, but you can add a
> description that it is a "flute-like instrument originating in the music of
> the Andes".  Similarly, call a churrango a churango, but describe it as a
> string instrument used in Andean music that is similar to a mandolin,
> (adding that it is sometimes made from an armadillo shell instead of wood
> and is tuned differently).  Etc...
>

the issue is when is folk english, like I mentioned with the Crash, Slap and
the Chimes. Whcih could be easily confused with non-musical use of those
words and get lost in translation.

>
> A good music dictionary would be helpful for some of this. The Harvard
> Dictionary of Music was the "gold standard" for this when I majored in music
> at UCLA way back in the 1950s.  It is still top rated. I don't know how many
> folk instruments from other countries will be found there, but in general,
> you couldn't go wrong with it for anything it does cover. I notice from the
> sample pages that terms from several languages are included:
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Harvard-Dictionary-University-Reference-Library/dp/0674011635/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1309578130&sr=1-1
>

Which is my point on having something like that for spanish.

>
> Caryl
>
> > From: cjlhomeaddress at gmail.com
> > Date: Fri, 1 Jul 2011 13:15:29 -0400
> > Subject: Re: [Localization] [Sur] TamTam activity Spanish locales
> > To: jza at openoffice.org
> > CC: cbigenho at hotmail.com; localization at lists.laptop.org;
> dirakx at gmail.com; olpc-sur at lists.laptop.org
>
> >
> > Caryl,
> >
> > You may not have seen my reply to Alexandro (posted to the L10n list),
> >
> > See the link below to get the spreadheet attachment of the proposed
> > developers comments attachment:
> >
> > http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/localization/2011-June/003003.html
> >
> > I have a different take on improving i18n of instrument names.
> > Italian names may be a standard of practice among trained musicians,
> > but I think that is not a standard we want to impose on locaizers.
> >
> > My idea is to provide links to the English Wikipedia page (where
> > available). Localizers are presumed to be able to read and understand
> > English (as the base language of the PO files), at least enough to get
> > a better idea of the instrument name in question from the pictures..
> > From the English wikipedia page, cross-wiki links to matching articles
> > in other language wikis can be followed from the left hand menu bar.
> > In this way, even a non-fluent language speaker can probably figure
> > out the proper local instrument name from the context / title of the
> > other language wiki page.
> >
> > If there is no matching article in your language's wikipedia version,
> > this is an opportunity to enhance that wiki by adding an article by
> > localizing and adapting the English version. This approach has the
> > further benefit of driving contributions to the upstream wiki on
> > musical instruments which can flow back down in the form of a better
> > native language wikislice being developed as a content bundle for
> > music education enhancement, also leveraging the other contributors to
> > that language's wiki.
> >
> > Does that approach make sense to you?
> >
> > cjl
> >
> > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 10:59 AM, Alexandro Colorado <jza at openoffice.org>
> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > On Fri, Jul 1, 2011 at 9:52 AM, Caryl Bigenho <cbigenho at hotmail.com>
> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> Hi...
> > >> I haven't looked a the terms in question, however I would like to
> point
> > >> out that there is a standard set of names for musical instruments.
> While
> > >> musical scores will often contain more than one, it might be nice to
> > >> standardize the instruments in TamTam, possibly using the Italian
> terms as
> > >> musicians everywhere will understand them. Why shouldn't children
> everywhere
> > >> also learn them?
> > >>  For local folk instruments, the local name where the instrument
> > >> originates would be most suitable.  There would be some problem with
> overlap
> > >> on some names, for example, "Flauto" is flute in Italian, and one of
> the
> > >> indiginous Andean wind instruments is called "Flauta".  The "Pan
> Pipes" as
> > >> we call them in English should properly be called "Samponia" or
> "Zamponia"
> > >> as it is called the Andean nations.  Music is known as the "universal
> > >> language", let's work to keep it that way.
> > >
> > > That is also a practice I have gone through many times to fix terms,
> however
> > > I think the main point is that at least for the spanish project, we do
> need
> > > good sources of musical instrument enciclopedias (wikipedia is very
> basic).
> > > And stop doing literal translations of some of the things.
> > > If we have good web collections of musicakl instruments it would be
> easier
> > > to get the lingo right for the music "subject".
> > > Music sound might be universal language, music instrument naming
> however,
> > > are very different and specific.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> Caryl  (M.A. Music Education... long time ago!)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> From: cjlhomeaddress at gmail.com
> > >> Date: Thu, 30 Jun 2011 13:20:18 -0400
> > >> To: jza at openoffice.org
> > >> CC: alsroot at member.fsf.org; localization at lists.laptop.org;
> > >> dirakx at gmail.com; olpc-sur at lists.laptop.org
> > >> Subject: Re: [Sur] [Localization] TamTam activity Spanish locales
> > >>
> > >> On Thu, Jun 30, 2011 at 10:47 AM, Alexandro Colorado <
> jza at openoffice.org>
> > >> wrote:
> > >>
> > >> > I found many issues with the localization for TamTam, in part for
> maybe
> > >> > the
> > >> > lack of knowledge on foreign musical instruments and in part because
> is
> > >> > just
> > >> > based off automated translations that avoid context.
> > >>
> > >> >
> > >> > A couple of examples are:
> > >> > slap = as in slap percussion. In spanish was translated as
> "Bofetada"
> > >> > which
> > >> > mostly means slap in the face or for us in Urban dictionary, "bitch
> > >> > slappin'" :D
> > >>
> > >> > However I in context is odd to slap your legs or slap that ass with
> the
> > >> > term
> > >> > "Bofetada".
> > >> > Other issues are instruments that don't really translate well like
> the
> > >> > plate
> > >> > instrument -- Chimes which is translated as "Bells" however the
> chimes
> > >>
> > >> > instrument doesnt really resembles any bells (Campandas). Specially
> > >> > since is
> > >> > a mixture between ximbal and a triangle instrument.
> > >> > Would want to generate a report of all these fuzzy terms and dump it
> > >> > into
> > >>
> > >> > something more people can discuss on a more public list. Feel free
> to
> > >> > contribute the terminology.
> > >> > --
> > >> > Alexandro Colorado
> > >> > OpenOffice.org Español
> > >> > http://es.openoffice.org
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> Alexandro (jza),
> > >>
> > >> You are certainly not the only person who has noticed the difficulty
> > >> of localizing some of the sound names of the TamTam tooltips, but it
> > >> is always good to bring such discussions to the list.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I recently worked with Rafael Ortiz (dirakx) and Aleksey Lim (alsroot)
> > >> to make some suggestions to make it easier for localizers to give good
> > >> translations by adding additional developer's comments. (see attached
> > >>
> > >> spreadsheet and this recent commit).
> > >>
> > >>
> > >>
> http://git.sugarlabs.org/tamtam/tamtam/commit/b49b14cf394f06e7ab788ff5ab9e521116a2a368
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> In addition, alsroot and dirakx are experimenting with combining the
> > >> TamTam strings into a single PO file so there is not quite so much
> > >> duplicate effort required to do all four TamTam Suite activities.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I am not claiming that my suggested re-namings are authoritative and I
> > >> believe that different ears can hear the sounds a little differently,
> > >> so I would be happy to discuss alternatives to the suggested changes I
> > >>
> > >> proposed. This list is a fine place to do tha as it is really
> > >> related to internationalization (as opposed to activity function).
> > >> This is also a good time to do that as the code is getting some i18n
> > >> attention anyway and consensus changes can be made relatively easily.
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I won't comment on specific string translations into Spanish, I'll
> > >> leave that to native speakers, I'm just trying to make it easier for
> > >> all localizers to provide a quality translation of these relative new
> > >>
> > >> string additions to the TamTam suite.
> > >>
> > >> Warmest regards,
> > >>
> > >> cjl
> > >>
> > >> _______________________________________________ Lista olpc-Sur
> > >> olpc-Sur at lists.laptop.org http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Alexandro Colorado
> > > OpenOffice.org Español
> > > http://es.openoffice.org
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Localization mailing list
> > > Localization at lists.laptop.org
> > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/localization
> > >
> > >
>

-- 
*Alexandro Colorado*
*OpenOffice.org* Español
http://es.openoffice.org
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