[Grassroots-l] [Localization] [Fwd: Re: #7116 NORM Never A: Possible European G1G1 program needs appropriate keyboards]

Edward Cherlin echerlin at gmail.com
Tue Jun 3 01:26:51 EDT 2008

I made an error in my previous posting. The OLPC French AZERTY
keyboard layout exists, and is shown on the OLPC French Keyboard page
on the Wiki. ISO_Next_Group and ISO_Prev_Group in the file listing are
the keyboard switching commands. I see that this definition supports
more than the two layouts proposed originally for OLPC keyboards by
cycling through a list. See
http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Category:Keyboard for links to other
available layouts.

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 9:11 PM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry for so much cross-posting, but this affects us all.
> On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 12:59 PM, LASKE (or possibly LASKÉ), Lionel
> (C2S) <LLASKE at c2s.fr> wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> Just to add my one cent on the "appropriate keyboard issue":
> Merci beaucoup.
>> My name is Lionel Laské. Like others people I love the OLPC Project. So like others, I talk a lot about OLPC, and I show the XO that I've bought via G1G1 (thanks to a good friend of mine in USA). Of course every people here which viewing my XO say "WOW" and say "where I can get mine ?". So it's really frustrated to say: "no way today". So yes, here in France like elsewhere in Europe, we're waiting for "our" G1G1 from month.
>> I think that G1G1 is a very good way to promote the OLPC project and to help the OLPC Foundation. But I really think that a G1G1 in France without a French keyboard is not a good idea.
> It is important to understand that the standard Fedora Linux French
> AZERTY keyboard layout ships on the laptop. You invoke it with
> setxkbmap fr
> from the Terminal activity to use the file containing
>    key <AD01>  { [         a,          A,           ae,           AE ] };
>    key <AD02>  { [         z,          Z, guillemotleft,        less ] };
>    key <AD03>  { [         e,          E,     EuroSign,         cent ] };
>    key <AD11>  { [dead_circumflex, dead_diaeresis, dead_diaeresis,
> dead_abovering ] };
> and so forth. Note that this provides the dead key accents that the
> French expect, rather than the Compose key sequences used in the US
> layout. For example, Compose ' a produces á, Compose ` e produces è,
> Compose , c produces ç, and similarly for combinations containing ^ ô
> " ïÿ and others, such as Compose A A producing Å. On the French
> layout, dead_circumflex o produces ô, and similarly for other
> combinations. This comes from the century-long tradition of using
> deadkeys on French typewriters, keys that typed an accent symbol but
> did not advance the carriage, so that the letter could be typed
> without backspacing.
> There are two questions before us concerning GiveOneGetOne for Europe,
> in addition to the question of the countries to be included.
> * Which layouts will be printed on the keytops?
> * Which standard Linux keyboard layout files on the XO will be
> modified for the special keyboard arrangement on the XO? Among other
> things, we should be able to use the ×÷ key as is, or for switching
> keyboard layouts, as defined in keyboard configurations for customer
> countries and GiveOneGetOne target countries.
> Arranging for printed key tops for every standard layout in Europe
> would be a logistical nightmare. The most recent proposal is to ship
> US International, although the question of Greek and Cyrillic has been
> raised. Some compromise might be in order. Spanish is certainly
> available for manufacturing. Haiti does not use the French layout, so
> French has not been done.
> Since keyboard layout files are Open Source text files, the community
> can do the necessary modifications if someone will document the
> requirements. If we can't get it from people who have done the work,
> we can compare the XO versions of files for Spanish and other
> languages of target countries with the more usual versions.
> You can make the French keyboard the default on your own XO by
> following the instructions at
> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Customizing_NAND_images#Keyboard. We need
> someone to create a script to automate the process, and we should get
> those instructions translated and customized for various countries and
> language choices.
> Anybody who wants to volunteer for such documentation, keyboard file,
> and scripting work should let me and Kim Quirk know.
> Outside of G1G1, for example, in Rwanda, different users might want
> English International, Pan-African, and French keyboards in any
> combination. Some Arabic-speaking countries will want Arabic together
> with AZERTY or QWERTY, and so on for the rest of the Francophonie, and
> in a similar way for other former colonies. Presumably Mongolia will
> eventually want Cyrillic, traditional Mongolian, and US, and
> individuals may want to add one or another of the Dvorak keyboards.
> India has ten writing systems, and will require more discussion and
> thought.
>> Of course, French people are often arrogant and rude but they really love their language and they really love their accents: é, è, à, ô, ë and some other funniest. And French keyboard allow very easily to type accents.
>> My son (7 years old) use a XO since February. It took one month before he successfully typing one accent on the English keyboard. Thought he learn reading and writing this year at school I must confess that today, he forget very often to type accent in the Write activity.
>> Note also than no laptop are sold in France without a French keyboard. Nobody (except geeks may be) could seriously think to buy a computer here with a QWERTY keyboard.
>> I'm working with other guys to OLPC France Grassroot. Because XO is a great tool for children in every country, we try to promote the XO to the French government. I'm afraid that one of the first remark we've got could be: "Hmmm it's a funny machine, do you have a French Keyboard ?"
>> So, yes I'm really think that we need an appropriate keyboard in France, like in Deutschland, in Italy and in others countries.
>> My name is Lionel, Lionel Laské (please, don't miss the accent on my name).
> Oui, bien sûr.
>> Regards.
>> Lionel.
>> ------------------------------
>> Message: 3
>> Date: Sat, 31 May 2008 08:18:10 -0700
>> From: "Edward Cherlin" <echerlin at gmail.com>
>> Subject: Re: [Localization] [Fwd: Re: #7116 NORM Never A: Possible
>>        European        G1G1 program needs appropriate keyboards]
>> To: "Kim Quirk" <kim at laptop.org>, "Chuck Kane" <chuck at laptop.org>,
>>        "Nicholas Negroponte" <nn at media.mit.edu>
>> Cc: OLPC Localization list <localization at lists.laptop.org>,     OLPC Devel
>>        <devel at laptop.org>, Adam Holt <holt at laptop.org>,        "Community Support
>>        Volunteers -- who help respond to help AT       laptop.org"
>>        <support-gang at lists.laptop.org>
>> Message-ID:
>>        <e574f6eb0805310818t5e84bd10n3f7f0ba5aa245909 at mail.gmail.com>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>> On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 7:09 AM, Kim Quirk <kim at laptop.org> wrote:
>>> Adam and Support gang,
>>> A second G1G1 program will still be only US/International keyboards
>>> (http://wiki.laptop.org/go/OLPC_Keyboard_layouts#US_International_keyboard).
>>> There are too many logistics, production, forecasting, and shipping
>>> issues associated with more than a couple of SKUs (different laptop
>>> configurations) for a G1G1 program.
>> I don't know whether that is acceptable to Europe. They want Cyrillic
>> (Bulgarian and Serbian layouts are completely different from each
>> other and from Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian, which are all quite
>> similar), Greek, and Eastern European (Czech, Slovak, Polish...are
>> nearly identical), at least. I can look up the standard layouts in
>> more detail if that will help. You need to specify exactly which
>> countries will be included in your version of Europe. Lithuania,
>> Latvia, and Estonia are EU members. So are Malta and Cyprus. Turkey is
>> a candidate. Croatia, Bosnia/Herzegovina, Serbia, Macedonia,
>> Montenegro, and Albania are not members.
>> You had better get the lawyers to check out EU regulations on computer
>> sales. I suppose that you can get away with printing only US
>> International on the keyboard as long as you say so, very clearly, in
>> the announcements and ads, and explain how to access the other layouts
>> in a document shipped with the laptops.
>>> But, from a languages perspective, It would be great to point
>>> translators for European languages (or any languages) to various ways
>>> in which they can help translate our wiki pages and add to the product
>>> translations through Pootle.
>>> Here are some links:
>>> Localization of XO files: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Localization
>>> Translating wiki pages: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Translating
>> Pootle page, including table of localizers: http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Pootle
>> Pootle: http://dev.laptop.org/translate
>> Localization mailing list at http://lists.laptop.org/
>>> Thanks,
>>> Kim
>>> On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 3:14 PM, Adam Holt <holt at laptop.org> wrote:
>>>> Dear Kim,
>>>> Can we get some preliminary discussion going in the next couple weeks,
>>>> towards helping people set up fuller support
>>>> structure for those European languages?
>> Talk to me about any language support issues that management isn't handling.
>>>> Or if nothing else, an idea as to how many EU countries are liable to be
>>>> supported for 2008's G1G1?
>>>> Whether it's 2 countries or 12 countries makes all the world of difference
>> Uh, actually there are 27 countries in the EU, and 8 candidates.
>> Non-members include Switzerland, Norway, and the new countries formed
>> from former Yugoslavia (except Slovenia).
>>>> ;)
>>>> --A!
>> %-[
> --
> Edward Cherlin
> End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business
> http://www.EarthTreasury.org/
> "The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay

Edward Cherlin
End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business
"The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay

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