[OLPC-Games] Play Go issues for laptop

[Andrés Ambrois]

Hola Paul!

> On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Paul Barchilon <shimari at comcast.net> 
wrote:
> > Dear Walter and Andres,
> > I have been so excited about the OLPC project that I finally put my money
> > where my mouth is and have just purchased one through the give one get
> > one campaign.  I expect it in the next few days, and I can't wait to play
> > with it!  I will also take it to my children's club and have all the kids
> > play your program.  This will give us a good indication of the programs
> > playing strength, which would be critical for any kind of handicap mode.
> > Glad you have found my feedback helpful.  I would still very much like to
> > discuss the possibility of creating an interactive tutorial directly
> > within the game.  It would be a much more natural way to learn.  As I
> > mentioned before, I would be happy to write all of the content, you would
> > just need a way to have the program play out the moves and offer options.
> >  I would also like to edit the Wiki page on Go, or replace it completely.
> >  Would that be okay with you guys?  Is there a review process or
> > something that I should go through?

Hey, editing the wiki is always fair game. Don't worry about screwing things 
up, the wiki has its own version control mechanism. 

I have several plans for PlayGo but not much time to implement them. 

I intend to further separate the ruleset functions from the main program by 
providing an API for people to write their own rulesets with a few lines of 
Python. (Implement a Ruleset abstract class)

Also I want to add several configuration options, such as Komi, handicap, AI 
level, etc. 

A Tutorial mode would be awesome, hopefully the above restructuring will make 
it easier to include it. 

> > Also, I wanted to share some interesting comments from AGF President
> > Terry Benson.  He is referring to area counting instead of territory
> > counting. Area counting counts both the territory and the stones on the
> > board.  This is the traditional Chinese method.  Territory counting is
> > the traditional Japanese method and counts only the empty space.  Terry's
> > point is that if the program used area counting, then it wouldn't matter
> > that the computer wasted moves to capture every dead stone or group in
> > its territory, it also wouldn't affect the person's score.  It wouldn't
> > solve the problem of teaching beginners bad moves, but it would
> > definitely be easier to program. Terry's comments are below:
> > I am curious about the underlying rule set and rule concept being used
> > and, while I've read everything, I can't quite be sure. We are (I hope)
> > using an area concept. The computer appears to count "territory" and so
> > beginners will lose if they make unnecessary moves. This is one of the
> > reasons I think territory is bad (besides the inability to see when the
> > game is over). Capturing all the dead stones is "unnecessary" except when
> > you can't see that the stones are dead. What you and I would consider
> > necessary playing out is, to the pros, just as unnecessary as the dead
> > stones on the left of the screen shot. It's all relative. The point is to
> > be able to let the players play out any situations unclear to them with
> > no penalty.
> >
> > If the computer counts everything - living stones and territory - it will
> > solve a bunch of problems. The new WMSG rules use Ing Fill-in which is
> > equivalent to area. So anything we do should be area based. Beginners
> > don't need pass stones if they count stones and territory and I would
> > make that explicit. ("Players in some countries make the counting easier
> > by only counting the empty territory points. But in that case, players
> > must hand over a pass stone as a prisoner each time they pass.") The new
> > WMGG rules do not require white to play last and - in fact - deduct one
> > point if white passes first (meaning black played last). This adjustment
> > in the komi (either 6.5 or 7.5 depending on who passes first) makes a 6.5
> > komi meaningful.
> >
> > That's background info. For the case here, the point is that when you
> > pass you hand over a stone. If black plays last, white doesn't (as under
> > AGA rules) hand over an extra pass stone. This is close to WMSG rules.

  I agree that area counting might be best. With some luck, using area rules 
will be trivial after the rule enforcing code is modularized

> > Thanks much,
> > Paul
> > Paul Barchilon,
> > American Go Foundation
> > http://tigersmouth.org
> > http://agfgo.org

  Thank you!

> > On Oct 24, 2008, at 6:58 AM, Walter Bender wrote:
> >
> > Great feedback!! Especially in light of consideration of our learning
> > goals. Thanks.
> >
> > -walter
> >
> > On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 4:02 AM, Paul Barchilon <shimari at comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > Hi Andres,
> >
> > Here is a list of most of the problems.  Some of these may be caused by
> >
> > running the program on the emulator.  I was able to fix the view menu,
> >
> > thanks for the suggestion.  With komi the scoring is correct, except the
> >
> > half point issue.  The number of prisoners I had in the games I played
> > did
> >
> > not make it evident that there was komi, I thought they just weren't
> > being
> >
> > counted, or in one case added to the wrong color.
> >
> > 1) A player should be able to choose color as well as board size.
> >
> > 2) Your program is strong enough to beat any beginner, so you need to
> > create
> >
> > a handicap module.  With handicaps, the AI could play people at 18
> > different
> >
> > ranks, guaranteeing a lot more interest in the game.  If a beginner
> > simply
> >
> > loses every game, they will rapidly lose interest.
> >
> > 3) The scoring mechanism is abstract and confusing.  A visual display of
> >
> > prisoners would be helpful.  The game lists prisoners as "score" which is
> >
> > not correct.  Komi is not indicated anywhere, but that should also be
> >
> > something you can choose along with handicap.  It should be displayed on
> > the
> >
> > side, along with "Prisoners" for each side.
> >
> > 4) The computer waits to display the move you make until after it has
> >
> > decided on its move.  This makes a person think their move hasn't been
> >
> > registered.  When the move does appear, it comes at the same time as your
> >
> > prior move.  When there are many stones on the board, it is extremely
> >
> > difficult to find where the computer moved - especially if it is not in
> > the
> >
> > same area.  The last played stone for either color should have a circle
> > or
> >
> > some other mark in it.
> >
> > 5) The program does not understand the concept of dead stones.  It must
> >
> > surround and capture stones in order to score them.  In actual play when
> >
> > both players realize a group or a stone has no possibility of making two
> >
> > eyes,
> >
> > the group is simply abandoned.  It is not necessary to spend extra stones
> > to
> >
> > capture them, they should be removed automatically at the end of the
> > game.
> >
> > Obviously this is a difficult assessment for the computer to make. KGS
> >
> > solves this problem by asking the player to mark any dead stones.  Some
> > kind
> >
> > of pop up menu that explains the concept and tells a person to mark the
> >
> > stones prior to scoring would work.  It is a little tricky because new
> >
> > players won't know which stones are dead either.  Solving this problem
> > will
> >
> > take some creativity, but I am sure we can come up with something.  I
> > have
> >
> > screen captures to demonstrate this, but I am not attaching them to this
> >
> > message as doing so seems to cause the message to be blocked from the
> > list.
> >
> > I will try sending the screen caps to your personal e-mail and see if
> > that
> >
> > works.
> >
> > 6) The program makes unnecessary moves at the end of the game.  It
> > appears
> >
> > to think that all stones must be connected into a single group.  It also
> >
> > fills points and makes eyes where they are not needed.  This could
> > actually
> >
> > cause the program to lose a game it has won, and it could possibly cause
> > it
> >
> > to fill a liberty that would put its own group in danger, or create a
> > seki.
> >
> > Again, I have a screen cap for this.
> >
> > 7) I get hovering ghost stones that get stuck on the board.  They are
> >
> > semi-transparent, and occur at random.  This may be something the
> > emulator
> >
> > is causing.
> >
> > 8) I have had difficulty starting a second game with the AI every time. 
> > It
> >
> > fails to clear the board if you click "Play against Play Go." If you hit
> > the
> >
> > reload arrow, it clears the board, but then nothing happens after you
> > play
> >
> > your stone.  It seems to be in two player mode.  If you click play
> > against
> >
> > play go again, still nothing happens.  Then if you place a second stone,
> > the
> >
> > AI kicks in and you are white and the computer plays black, but the
> > person
> >
> > had to play the first two stones.  I had to keep clicking on reload and
> > new
> >
> > game repeatedly to get it to launch another game.  The first one always
> >
> > worked, the others are problematic.  Could be an emulation issue.
> >
> > 9) I see no way to choose opponents, and no way to negotiate color with
> > them
> >
> > either.  If two kids are playing over their local network, they need to
> > be
> >
> > able to do this.  Perhaps this functionality has not been added to the
> >
> > program yet.  A chat interface within the program would be helpful for
> > this
> >
> > kind of thing, although perhaps kids could use the OLPC chat program
> > while
> >
> > they are playing.  Whatever the case, some communication is necessary to
> >
> > start the game.
> >
> > 10) The introduction page, from Wikipedia, is not really a good guide for
> >
> > kids.  Our Tigersmouth explanation is better, but probably needs
> > alteration
> >
> > for this project too.  The Interactive Way to Go might be the best
> > choice,
> >
> > as it is already in a great many languages.  It needs Java to run though.
> >
> > Does Java come pre-installed on the laptops?  I tried to download and
> >
> > install it, but it wouldn't work.  We don't want kids to have to download
> >
> > something separate to learn how to play.  A tutorial within the program
> >
> > might be a better way to explain the game to kids.  We could write the
> > words
> >
> > and create the moves if that is something you might be able to implement.
> >  A
> >
> > learn the rules button could launch this mode, kids could click on a
> > button
> >
> > to advance after they read each description and looked at the example.
> >
> > We should play on KGS and talk about these things.  I think you are three
> >
> > hours earlier than I am, depending on where in Uruguay you are.  I am GMT
> >
> > -7.  Evenings are good for me, but I could play during the day if
> > necessary.
> >
> > Next Wednesday, the 29th, would work for me.  Other days are okay too,
> > let
> >
> > me know what works for you.  the 13 year old who has a laptop said he
> > might
> >
> > be able to join us also.  He thinks he is about 19 kyu, he cannot beat
> > your
> >
> > program.
> >
> > I am very glad your English is so good, my Spanish is terrible ;)
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > Paul Barchilon,
> >
> > American Go Foundation
> >
> > http://tigersmouth.org
> >
> > http://agfgo.org
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:40 AM, Andrés Ambrois wrote:
> >
> > On Thursday 23 October 2008 05:15:36 you wrote:
> >
> > I sent this message last week, but it came back with a message that it
> >
> > needed moderation (I guess because I included a screen shot).  It
> >
> > appears to have never been posted to the list, so here it is again
> >
> > without the image:
> >
> > Hi Andres,
> >
> > Hi!
> >
> > I spent a good deal of time playing with the program and overall was
> >
> > quite impressed!  It looks great, and plays fairly well.  There are
> >
> > many little problems, and a couple of major ones.  The scoring engine
> >
> > got the wrong result on every game I played, there are clearly some
> >
> > mistaken instructions in the module itself.  Should I post the
> >
> > problems to this list or would it be better to talk about them on the
> >
> > phone, or during a game on KGS?  This week is looking pretty busy for
> >
> > me, so it would have to be next week for the latter.  I am on mountain
> >
> > time in the US, where are you?
> >
> > Thanks! I wonder how the scoring engine is failing. What it does is take
> >
> > your territories, subtract the prisoners your enemy has taken, and if
> >
> > you're
> >
> > White add 5.5 komi. The scores are currently displaying as integers, this
> >
> > is
> >
> > stupid and I need to fix it.
> >
> > Please post any problems you find :). I'm from Uruguay, so your phone
> >
> > bill is
> >
> > going to be an issue =P.
> >
> > Also, I am unable to right click in the software.  I think the
> >
> > emulation doesn't recognize my mouse.  Option click or command click
> >
> > don't trigger it either.  This means I can't access the jabber online
> >
> > play option you were mentioning.
> >
> > Right clicking is not necessary, if you just leave the mouse over what
> >
> > you're trying to "right-click" on for a few seconds, it will have the
> > same
> >
> > effect.
> >
> > When I browse the web, sites are enlarged to the wrong screen
> >
> > resolution.  As a result, fonts are huge, and you can only see the top
> >
> > left corner of a web site, even one that is at 800x600.  Is there a
> >
> > way to control this in the program, or from outside of it?  Is it
> >
> > doing this because I am on a Mac and using an emulator?  I attach a
> >
> > screen shot of our Tiger's Mouth site so you can see the problem.
> >
> > I believe this is a problem with the emulator. Maybe this can help you
> >
> > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Emulating_the_XO/Quick_Start/Mac and more
> >
> > specifically this:
> >
> > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Emulating_the_XO/Help_and_tips#Font_Size_correc
> >tion
> >
> > If that doesn't work, you can at least reduce the font size in Browse in
> >
> > the
> >
> > "View" Menu, or by pressing Ctrl+-.
> >
> > Cheers!
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > http://tigersmouth.org
> >
> > Paul Barchilon
> >
> > 1005 36th St.
> >
> > Boulder, CO 80303-2139
> >
> > 303-440-7124
> >
> > On Oct 12, 2008, at 1:50 PM, Andrés Ambrois wrote:
> >
> > On Sunday 12 October 2008 17:28:15 Paul Barchilon wrote:
> >
> > Hi Walter,
> >
> > That was exactly the right question to ask!  I was trying the LiveCD
> >
> > method with XO-LiveCD_080919.iso, which didn't work.  When I
> >
> > created a
> >
> > "new PC" in Qemu and told it to use olpc-redhat-stream-ship.2-
> >
> > devel_ext3.img then it worked.
> >
> > Still trying to figure out how to get the screen size to the
> >
> > appropriate dimensions, and now I have to figure out how to use your
> >
> > OS.  From there I will load PlayGo and get back to all of you.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > for the help, I am glad I got in finally!
> >
> > Great! I'm glad you got it. To install PlayGo just head to
> >
> > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/PlayGo with the Browse activity and click
> >
> > on the
> >
> > PlayGo.xo link in the box on the upper right. Then you can launch it
> >
> > from the
> >
> > Journal or in the list view in the Home.
> >
> > Here is another comment from the kid who is giving me feedback on his
> >
> > laptop:
> >
> > From    leinad
> >
> > Date    10/11/2008 23:39
> >
> > Subject RE: one thing about playgo i can
> >
> > i dont think it is online i think you have to be physically near
> >
> > another XO...
> >
> > and i do not have access to wi-fi that frequently...
> >
> > also i noticed that the program does not take away dead stones...
> >
> >
> > I am not sure if he means it doesn't take dead stones off during
> >
> > play,
> >
> > or at the end, both are important though.  I will definitely want to
> >
> > play a game with Andres on KGS, I think we could figure out all the
> >
> > problems quite quickly that way.
> >
> > I'm not sure about what he means by that either. The game does take
> >
> > away
> >
> > dead stones, and supports collaboration. To play it "online" you
> >
> > will need to
> >
> > connect to an online jabber server. If you have a recent version of
> >
> > the
> >
> > system, this is done by right clicking on the "XO guy" in the home
> >
> > view ->
> >
> > Control Panel -> Network and typing: jabber.laptop.org in the
> >
> > "Server" field.
> >
> > Then, you will need to click on the "tick" mark and restart Sugar.
> >
> > Sure, I'm on KGS now as a guest, my handle is aambrois. Please go
> >
> > easy on me
> >
> > =P.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Paul
> >
> > Thank you!
> >
> > http://barchilonceramics.com
> >
> > Paul Barchilon
> >
> > 1005 36th St.
> >
> > Boulder, CO 80303-2139
> >
> > 303-440-7124
> >
> > --
> >
> > -Andrés
> >
> > --
> >
> > -Andrés
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> >
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> >
> > Games at lists.laptop.org
> >
> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/games
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Walter Bender
> > Sugar Labs
> > http://www.sugarlabs.org
> > _______________________________________________
> > Games mailing list
> > Games at lists.laptop.org
> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/games

-- 
  -Andrés