[OLPC-Games] Play Go issues for laptop

[Walter Bender]

I leave it to Andres to reply about the proposed changes to the game
play itself. A built-in tutorial sounds great. As far as the wiki, it
is far game. I am sure your rewrite would be appreciated.

-walter

On Thu, Nov 20, 2008 at 10:48 PM, Paul Barchilon <shimari at comcast.net> wrote:
> Dear Walter and Andres,
> I have been so excited about the OLPC project that I finally put my money
> where my mouth is and have just purchased one through the give one get one
> campaign.  I expect it in the next few days, and I can't wait to play with
> it!  I will also take it to my children's club and have all the kids play
> your program.  This will give us a good indication of the programs playing
> strength, which would be critical for any kind of handicap mode.
> Glad you have found my feedback helpful.  I would still very much like to
> discuss the possibility of creating an interactive tutorial directly within
> the game.  It would be a much more natural way to learn.  As I mentioned
> before, I would be happy to write all of the content, you would just need a
> way to have the program play out the moves and offer options.  I would also
> like to edit the Wiki page on Go, or replace it completely.  Would that be
> okay with you guys?  Is there a review process or something that I should go
> through?
> Also, I wanted to share some interesting comments from AGF President Terry
> Benson.  He is referring to area counting instead of territory counting.
>  Area counting counts both the territory and the stones on the board.  This
> is the traditional Chinese method.  Territory counting is the traditional
> Japanese method and counts only the empty space.  Terry's point is that if
> the program used area counting, then it wouldn't matter that the computer
> wasted moves to capture every dead stone or group in its territory, it also
> wouldn't affect the person's score.  It wouldn't solve the problem of
> teaching beginners bad moves, but it would definitely be easier to program.
>  Terry's comments are below:
> I am curious about the underlying rule set and rule concept being used and,
> while I've read everything, I can't quite be sure. We are (I hope) using an
> area concept. The computer appears to count "territory" and so beginners
> will lose if they make unnecessary moves. This is one of the reasons I think
> territory is bad (besides the inability to see when the game is over).
> Capturing all the dead stones is "unnecessary" except when you can't see
> that the stones are dead. What you and I would consider necessary playing
> out is, to the pros, just as unnecessary as the dead stones on the left of
> the screen shot. It's all relative. The point is to be able to let the
> players play out any situations unclear to them with no penalty.
>
> If the computer counts everything - living stones and territory - it will
> solve a bunch of problems. The new WMSG rules use Ing Fill-in which is
> equivalent to area. So anything we do should be area based. Beginners don't
> need pass stones if they count stones and territory and I would make that
> explicit. ("Players in some countries make the counting easier by only
> counting the empty territory points. But in that case, players must hand
> over a pass stone as a prisoner each time they pass.") The new WMGG rules do
> not require white to play last and - in fact - deduct one point if white
> passes first (meaning black played last). This adjustment in the komi
> (either 6.5 or 7.5 depending on who passes first) makes a 6.5 komi
> meaningful.
>
> That's background info. For the case here, the point is that when you pass
> you hand over a stone. If black plays last, white doesn't (as under AGA
> rules) hand over an extra pass stone. This is close to WMSG rules.
>
> Thanks much,
> Paul
> Paul Barchilon,
> American Go Foundation
> http://tigersmouth.org
> http://agfgo.org
>
>
> On Oct 24, 2008, at 6:58 AM, Walter Bender wrote:
>
> Great feedback!! Especially in light of consideration of our learning
> goals. Thanks.
>
> -walter
>
> On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 4:02 AM, Paul Barchilon <shimari at comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Hi Andres,
>
> Here is a list of most of the problems.  Some of these may be caused by
>
> running the program on the emulator.  I was able to fix the view menu,
>
> thanks for the suggestion.  With komi the scoring is correct, except the
>
> half point issue.  The number of prisoners I had in the games I played did
>
> not make it evident that there was komi, I thought they just weren't being
>
> counted, or in one case added to the wrong color.
>
> 1) A player should be able to choose color as well as board size.
>
> 2) Your program is strong enough to beat any beginner, so you need to create
>
> a handicap module.  With handicaps, the AI could play people at 18 different
>
> ranks, guaranteeing a lot more interest in the game.  If a beginner simply
>
> loses every game, they will rapidly lose interest.
>
> 3) The scoring mechanism is abstract and confusing.  A visual display of
>
> prisoners would be helpful.  The game lists prisoners as "score" which is
>
> not correct.  Komi is not indicated anywhere, but that should also be
>
> something you can choose along with handicap.  It should be displayed on the
>
> side, along with "Prisoners" for each side.
>
> 4) The computer waits to display the move you make until after it has
>
> decided on its move.  This makes a person think their move hasn't been
>
> registered.  When the move does appear, it comes at the same time as your
>
> prior move.  When there are many stones on the board, it is extremely
>
> difficult to find where the computer moved - especially if it is not in the
>
> same area.  The last played stone for either color should have a circle or
>
> some other mark in it.
>
> 5) The program does not understand the concept of dead stones.  It must
>
> surround and capture stones in order to score them.  In actual play when
>
> both players realize a group or a stone has no possibility of making two
>
> eyes,
>
> the group is simply abandoned.  It is not necessary to spend extra stones to
>
> capture them, they should be removed automatically at the end of the game.
>
> Obviously this is a difficult assessment for the computer to make. KGS
>
> solves this problem by asking the player to mark any dead stones.  Some kind
>
> of pop up menu that explains the concept and tells a person to mark the
>
> stones prior to scoring would work.  It is a little tricky because new
>
> players won't know which stones are dead either.  Solving this problem will
>
> take some creativity, but I am sure we can come up with something.  I have
>
> screen captures to demonstrate this, but I am not attaching them to this
>
> message as doing so seems to cause the message to be blocked from the list.
>
> I will try sending the screen caps to your personal e-mail and see if that
>
> works.
>
> 6) The program makes unnecessary moves at the end of the game.  It appears
>
> to think that all stones must be connected into a single group.  It also
>
> fills points and makes eyes where they are not needed.  This could actually
>
> cause the program to lose a game it has won, and it could possibly cause it
>
> to fill a liberty that would put its own group in danger, or create a seki.
>
> Again, I have a screen cap for this.
>
> 7) I get hovering ghost stones that get stuck on the board.  They are
>
> semi-transparent, and occur at random.  This may be something the emulator
>
> is causing.
>
> 8) I have had difficulty starting a second game with the AI every time.  It
>
> fails to clear the board if you click "Play against Play Go." If you hit the
>
> reload arrow, it clears the board, but then nothing happens after you play
>
> your stone.  It seems to be in two player mode.  If you click play against
>
> play go again, still nothing happens.  Then if you place a second stone, the
>
> AI kicks in and you are white and the computer plays black, but the person
>
> had to play the first two stones.  I had to keep clicking on reload and new
>
> game repeatedly to get it to launch another game.  The first one always
>
> worked, the others are problematic.  Could be an emulation issue.
>
> 9) I see no way to choose opponents, and no way to negotiate color with them
>
> either.  If two kids are playing over their local network, they need to be
>
> able to do this.  Perhaps this functionality has not been added to the
>
> program yet.  A chat interface within the program would be helpful for this
>
> kind of thing, although perhaps kids could use the OLPC chat program while
>
> they are playing.  Whatever the case, some communication is necessary to
>
> start the game.
>
> 10) The introduction page, from Wikipedia, is not really a good guide for
>
> kids.  Our Tigersmouth explanation is better, but probably needs alteration
>
> for this project too.  The Interactive Way to Go might be the best choice,
>
> as it is already in a great many languages.  It needs Java to run though.
>
> Does Java come pre-installed on the laptops?  I tried to download and
>
> install it, but it wouldn't work.  We don't want kids to have to download
>
> something separate to learn how to play.  A tutorial within the program
>
> might be a better way to explain the game to kids.  We could write the words
>
> and create the moves if that is something you might be able to implement.  A
>
> learn the rules button could launch this mode, kids could click on a button
>
> to advance after they read each description and looked at the example.
>
> We should play on KGS and talk about these things.  I think you are three
>
> hours earlier than I am, depending on where in Uruguay you are.  I am GMT
>
> -7.  Evenings are good for me, but I could play during the day if necessary.
>
> Next Wednesday, the 29th, would work for me.  Other days are okay too, let
>
> me know what works for you.  the 13 year old who has a laptop said he might
>
> be able to join us also.  He thinks he is about 19 kyu, he cannot beat your
>
> program.
>
> I am very glad your English is so good, my Spanish is terrible ;)
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Paul Barchilon,
>
> American Go Foundation
>
> http://tigersmouth.org
>
> http://agfgo.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:40 AM, Andrés Ambrois wrote:
>
> On Thursday 23 October 2008 05:15:36 you wrote:
>
> I sent this message last week, but it came back with a message that it
>
> needed moderation (I guess because I included a screen shot).  It
>
> appears to have never been posted to the list, so here it is again
>
> without the image:
>
> Hi Andres,
>
> Hi!
>
> I spent a good deal of time playing with the program and overall was
>
> quite impressed!  It looks great, and plays fairly well.  There are
>
> many little problems, and a couple of major ones.  The scoring engine
>
> got the wrong result on every game I played, there are clearly some
>
> mistaken instructions in the module itself.  Should I post the
>
> problems to this list or would it be better to talk about them on the
>
> phone, or during a game on KGS?  This week is looking pretty busy for
>
> me, so it would have to be next week for the latter.  I am on mountain
>
> time in the US, where are you?
>
> Thanks! I wonder how the scoring engine is failing. What it does is take
>
> your territories, subtract the prisoners your enemy has taken, and if
>
> you're
>
> White add 5.5 komi. The scores are currently displaying as integers, this
>
> is
>
> stupid and I need to fix it.
>
> Please post any problems you find :). I'm from Uruguay, so your phone
>
> bill is
>
> going to be an issue =P.
>
> Also, I am unable to right click in the software.  I think the
>
> emulation doesn't recognize my mouse.  Option click or command click
>
> don't trigger it either.  This means I can't access the jabber online
>
> play option you were mentioning.
>
> Right clicking is not necessary, if you just leave the mouse over what
>
> you're trying to "right-click" on for a few seconds, it will have the same
>
> effect.
>
> When I browse the web, sites are enlarged to the wrong screen
>
> resolution.  As a result, fonts are huge, and you can only see the top
>
> left corner of a web site, even one that is at 800x600.  Is there a
>
> way to control this in the program, or from outside of it?  Is it
>
> doing this because I am on a Mac and using an emulator?  I attach a
>
> screen shot of our Tiger's Mouth site so you can see the problem.
>
> I believe this is a problem with the emulator. Maybe this can help you
>
> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Emulating_the_XO/Quick_Start/Mac and more
>
> specifically this:
>
> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Emulating_the_XO/Help_and_tips#Font_Size_correction
>
> If that doesn't work, you can at least reduce the font size in Browse in
>
> the
>
> "View" Menu, or by pressing Ctrl+-.
>
> Cheers!
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>
> http://tigersmouth.org
>
> Paul Barchilon
>
> 1005 36th St.
>
> Boulder, CO 80303-2139
>
> 303-440-7124
>
> On Oct 12, 2008, at 1:50 PM, Andrés Ambrois wrote:
>
> On Sunday 12 October 2008 17:28:15 Paul Barchilon wrote:
>
> Hi Walter,
>
> That was exactly the right question to ask!  I was trying the LiveCD
>
> method with XO-LiveCD_080919.iso, which didn't work.  When I
>
> created a
>
> "new PC" in Qemu and told it to use olpc-redhat-stream-ship.2-
>
> devel_ext3.img then it worked.
>
> Still trying to figure out how to get the screen size to the
>
> appropriate dimensions, and now I have to figure out how to use your
>
> OS.  From there I will load PlayGo and get back to all of you.
>
> Thanks
>
> for the help, I am glad I got in finally!
>
> Great! I'm glad you got it. To install PlayGo just head to
>
> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/PlayGo with the Browse activity and click
>
> on the
>
> PlayGo.xo link in the box on the upper right. Then you can launch it
>
> from the
>
> Journal or in the list view in the Home.
>
> Here is another comment from the kid who is giving me feedback on his
>
> laptop:
>
> From    leinad
>
> Date    10/11/2008 23:39
>
> Subject RE: one thing about playgo i can
>
> i dont think it is online i think you have to be physically near
>
> another XO...
>
> and i do not have access to wi-fi that frequently...
>
> also i noticed that the program does not take away dead stones...
>
>
> I am not sure if he means it doesn't take dead stones off during
>
> play,
>
> or at the end, both are important though.  I will definitely want to
>
> play a game with Andres on KGS, I think we could figure out all the
>
> problems quite quickly that way.
>
> I'm not sure about what he means by that either. The game does take
>
> away
>
> dead stones, and supports collaboration. To play it "online" you
>
> will need to
>
> connect to an online jabber server. If you have a recent version of
>
> the
>
> system, this is done by right clicking on the "XO guy" in the home
>
> view ->
>
> Control Panel -> Network and typing: jabber.laptop.org in the
>
> "Server" field.
>
> Then, you will need to click on the "tick" mark and restart Sugar.
>
> Sure, I'm on KGS now as a guest, my handle is aambrois. Please go
>
> easy on me
>
> =P.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Paul
>
> Thank you!
>
> http://barchilonceramics.com
>
> Paul Barchilon
>
> 1005 36th St.
>
> Boulder, CO 80303-2139
>
> 303-440-7124
>
> --
>
> -Andrés
>
> --
>
> -Andrés
>
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Walter Bender
> Sugar Labs
> http://www.sugarlabs.org
> _______________________________________________
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>
>



-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org