Devel Digest, Vol 49, Issue 43
Carlos Nazareno
object404 at gmail.com
Tue Mar 23 20:56:02 EDT 2010
>The real problem with Flash isn't even the non-free player. It's the non-free authoring
>tool chain every content creator is locked into, plus that even with the tools the
>resulting flash file is not fully editable. The result is an impenetrable magic gimmick,
>it's not supposed to be examined, deconstructed, rebuilt, improved. It's teaching kids
>to be consumers, not to be creators.
What? Have you guys not been reading what I've been saying?
THERE ARE NOW FREE AND OPEN SOURCE TOOLS FOR CREATING FLASH CONTENT.
You have Flashdevelop (opn source Actionscript Editor for Windows),
Flex SDK (all you need is a text editor to make AS3 .as files and a
command line to compile the SWF a la JDK), also, HaXe.
-Naz
On 3/24/10, devel-request at lists.laptop.org
<devel-request at lists.laptop.org> wrote:
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> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. RFC: change to XO sleep behavior (Paul Fox)
> 2. Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior (Chris Ball)
> 3. Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior (Hal Murray)
> 4. Re: New XO-1.5 10.2.0 build 114 (James Cameron)
> 5. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Martin Langhoff)
> 6. Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior (James Cameron)
> 7. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Carlos Nazareno)
> 8. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Chris Ball)
> 9. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Bert Freudenberg)
> 10. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Carlos Nazareno)
> 11. Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO (Carlos Nazareno)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:16:51 -0400
> From: Paul Fox <pgf at laptop.org>
> Subject: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
> To: devel at lists.laptop.org, sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> Message-ID: <22980.1269371811 at foxharp.boston.ma.us>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> recent releases of XO-1.5 (and also of F11-on-XO1, if we can ever
> get suspend/resume working properly again) have a new default
> behavior with regard to idle suspend. i'm soliciting opinions on
> how to fine-tune this new behavior.
>
> before:
> in the past on XO-1, the screen would dim, and after a
> certain duration of inactivity, the laptop would suspend
> (with the screen dimmed). a keystroke or touchpad gesture
> would waken the laptop from this state. in contrast, pushing
> the power button would cause the screen to blank and the
> laptop to go to sleep. one could leave this state only by
> pushing the power button again (or by closing/opening the lid).
>
> note that there was no ambiguity as to whether keyboard input
> would cause the laptop to wake up: if the screen was on, it
> would, otherwise, it wouldn't.
>
> now:
> in the new scheme, the idle sequence has changed: after a
> fairly brief period of inactivity, the system will suspend,
> leaving the screen on. (the user may not even know this has
> happened.) assuming there is still no keyboard activity, a
> little later the screen will dim, and sometime after that,
> the screen will blank. (if you care about these timings, please
> comment on #10034, rather than here.)
>
> now we finally come to the fine-tuning:
>
> a) currently, once the screen blanks, a keystroke will _not_
> wake the laptop. as a design, it seemed to make sense that
> if the screen was off, and the power LED was flashing slowly,
> then however we got there (i.e., via power button or
> idleness), the laptop should behave the same.
>
> b) but having been using the laptop this way for a while,
> several people have requested that if the screen blanks due
> to idleness, that it should remain wakeable with user
> activity. this makes it feel a lot more like a traditional
> screen saver (but note that your waking keystroke will be
> used, not dropped). everyone seems to be agreed that the
> power button, like a lid closure, should result in a state
> where the keyboard won't wake the laptop.
>
> so, what do you think? 'a' or 'b'? (note that 'a' and 'b'
> are identical with respect to power consumption.)
>
> further, if you choose 'a': are you comfortable having two
> laptop states:
> - dark screen wakeable from keyboard
> - dark screen _not_ wakeable from keyboard
> that are visually indistinguishable? is it worth adding yet
> another LED blink behavior to differentiate these states?
>
> paul
> =---------------------
> paul fox, pgf at laptop.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 15:23:22 -0400
> From: Chris Ball <cjb at laptop.org>
> Subject: Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
> To: Paul Fox <pgf at laptop.org>
> Cc: devel at lists.laptop.org, sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> Message-ID: <m3mxxy7sgl.fsf at pullcord.laptop.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi,
>
> > further, if you choose 'a': are you comfortable having two
>
> I think this is "if you choose 'b'".
>
> > laptop states: - dark screen wakeable from keyboard - dark screen
> > _not_ wakeable from keyboard that are visually indistinguishable?
> > is it worth adding yet another LED blink behavior to
> > differentiate these states?
>
> I'd be comfortable with it, and it doesn't seem worth adding another
> blink state.
>
> We could also consider just having the touchpad be available for
> wake-from-idle-sleep, and not the keyboard, since that way you
> wouldn't have any side effects from the wakeup key. But I think
> having the side effects isn't a big deal, so I'd go with your
> proposed (b).
>
> Thanks,
>
> - Chris.
> --
> Chris Ball <cjb at laptop.org>
> One Laptop Per Child
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 12:49:19 -0700
> From: Hal Murray <hmurray at megapathdsl.net>
> Subject: Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
> To: devel at lists.laptop.org
> Message-ID:
> <20100323194919.1E95680003B at ip-64-139-1-69.sjc.megapath.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
>
>> We could also consider just having the touchpad be available for
>> wake-from-idle-sleep, and not the keyboard, since that way you wouldn't
>> have
>> any side effects from the wakeup key. But I think having the side effects
>> isn't a big deal, so I'd go with your proposed (b).
>
> I've gotten into the habit of poking the shift key when I want to wake
> things
> up.
>
> If I poke a real key, that probably means that I know what I'm typing at and
> expect it to get used as input rather than wakeup.
>
>
> --
> These are my opinions, not necessarily my employer's. I hate spam.
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:51:01 +1100
> From: James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org>
> Subject: Re: New XO-1.5 10.2.0 build 114
> To: Paul Fox <pgf at laptop.org>
> Cc: Devel <devel at lists.laptop.org>, Yioryos Asprobounitis
> <mavrothal at yahoo.com>, Fedora OLPC <fedora-olpc-list at redhat.com>
> Message-ID: <20100323215101.GM31357 at us.netrek.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 08:07:41AM -0400, Paul Fox wrote:
>> yioryos wrote:
>> >
>> > OK. The Sugar desktop was unaffected by all these. So if you
>> > manage to switch you are safe. However, is still a breaker
>> > for me, given that is generated by a gnome panel option.
>>
>> hi yioryos -- perhaps you could file a trac ticket? there is a
>> growing collection of gnome-related bugs against 1.5, this one
>> should be included as well.
>
> http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/10084
> (changing screen resolution in XO-1.5 trashes the XO)
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.linux.org.au/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 18:43:25 -0400
> From: Martin Langhoff <martin.langhoff at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
> To: Carlos Nazareno <object404 at gmail.com>
> Cc: devel at lists.laptop.org
> Message-ID:
> <46a038f91003231543y3e58eed6w91b1d46c3bb2adcb at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 10:51 AM, Carlos Nazareno <object404 at gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> I know most people here prefer free as in Libre as opposed to free as
>> in beer, but what do you think of coordinating with Adobe to get Flash
>> 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO?
>
> Flash 10 AFAIK is available as an rpm, so a local deployment hoping to
> add it in their local image can do so easily.
>
> The current AIR "stable" is not available as rpm apparently, and
> that's causing some people a lot of pain. The preview binaries of
> their next major release are available as rpms.
>
>> Adobe already supports a lot of open-source initiatives and have
>> already open-sourced the Flex SDK which you can use to compile SWFs
>
> Unlikely that it's "open source" in the OSI sense, so let's not fall
> into that trap -- they opened up some of their code.
>
>> Also, Adobe blabla bla
>
> Look, I have worked for many years on the Shockwave and Flash
> platforms. Unless your clients are paying you real money to develop
> with it, it's honestly a PoS and there is no reason to celebrate it.
>
> There is just a ton of content in that damn format. Most of is bad
> quality, a vanishingly small % is passably good... but whoever owns it
> loves it, good or bad, because they paid good $ for it ;-)
>
>> Also, Flash is the most commonly used toolset for building educational
>> apps.
>
> Again, I have worked for many years in exactly that industry. That
> content... is of very low educational quality. Extremely low.
> Ridiculously low.
>
>> What do you guys think?
>
> That you've applied for a job at Adobe, or will do it soon ;-)
>
> Honestly, there is no point to what you propose: the only thing needed
> for integration work is for Adobe to make a good rpm of their current
> stable AIR. Maybe they can test it, and tune it for the XO-1.5.
>
> cheers,
>
>
> m
> --
> martin.langhoff at gmail.com
> martin at laptop.org -- School Server Architect
> - ask interesting questions
> - don't get distracted with shiny stuff - working code first
> - http://wiki.laptop.org/go/User:Martinlanghoff
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 09:58:45 +1100
> From: James Cameron <quozl at laptop.org>
> Subject: Re: RFC: change to XO sleep behavior
> To: Paul Fox <pgf at laptop.org>
> Cc: devel at lists.laptop.org, sugar-devel at lists.sugarlabs.org
> Message-ID: <20100323225844.GB5180 at us.netrek.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> b.
>
> --
> James Cameron
> http://quozl.linux.org.au/
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 7
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 07:27:23 +0800
> From: Carlos Nazareno <object404 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
> To: Martin Langhoff <martin.langhoff at gmail.com>
> Cc: devel at lists.laptop.org
> Message-ID:
> <c58c2c4a1003231627r2bbb5450wa162fbaac003d4f9 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
>>> What do you guys think?
>> That you've applied for a job at Adobe, or will do it soon ;-)
>
> No, I'm a flash game developer and there are *A LOT* of flash game
> developers out there, and it's now the easiest platform to develop
> games for.
>
> I'm 100% sure that a number of Flash game developers (professional or
> amateur) would love to contribute game & edugame content for the XO.
>
> Gnash just doesn't cut it. AVM1 is just too slow, especially for the XO-1.
>
>> Look, I have worked for many years on the Shockwave and Flash
>> platforms. Unless your clients are paying you real money to develop
>> with it, it's honestly a PoS and there is no reason to celebrate it.
>
> I don't think you've developed for it in the past 3 years then. Flash
> is an absolute joy to make games in. As a kid too, I got a big
> headstart on my classmates because I had educational Math & Word games
> on our home computer.
>
> Games in general proven to be one of the best ways to engage students
> - make learning fun, and they will learn.
>
> I have a Bookworm-like (Boggle-like) word game that's good to go on
> the XO with a few graphical tweaks, but it's in Flash 9 AS3 AVM2 and
> will not work with Gnash.
>
> -Naz
>
> --
> carlos nazareno
> http://twitter.com/object404
> http://www.object404.com
> --
> interactive media specialist
> zen graffiti studios
> http://www.zengraffiti.com
> --
> "if you don't like the way the world is running,
> then change it instead of just complaining."
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 8
> Date: Tue, 23 Mar 2010 19:36:17 -0400
> From: Chris Ball <cjb at laptop.org>
> Subject: Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
> To: Carlos Nazareno <object404 at gmail.com>
> Cc: devel at lists.laptop.org
> Message-ID: <m3ociemwzy.fsf at pullcord.laptop.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Hi,
>
> > What do you guys think?
>
> For what it's worth, I wrote up my personal opinion about this on the
> sugar-devel@ list last year:
>
> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-January/003516.html
>
> (This isn't an official OLPC policy; I didn't talk with anyone at OLPC
> before writing it.)
>
> - Chris.
> --
> Chris Ball <cjb at laptop.org>
> One Laptop Per Child
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 9
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 00:58:57 +0100
> From: Bert Freudenberg <bert at freudenbergs.de>
> Subject: Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
> To: Devel's in the Details <devel at lists.laptop.org>
> Message-ID: <0CB70AD5-6F22-4305-B728-CBB3CE3F4004 at freudenbergs.de>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> On 24.03.2010, at 00:36, Chris Ball wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>> What do you guys think?
>>
>> For what it's worth, I wrote up my personal opinion about this on the
>> sugar-devel@ list last year:
>>
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-January/003516.html
>>
>> (This isn't an official OLPC policy; I didn't talk with anyone at OLPC
>> before writing it.)
>>
>> - Chris.
>
> Very nicely put. This *should be* official policy in any case :)
>
> The real problem with Flash isn't even the non-free player. It's the
> non-free authoring tool chain every content creator is locked into, plus
> that even with the tools the resulting flash file is not fully editable. The
> result is an impenetrable magic gimmick, it's not supposed to be examined,
> deconstructed, rebuilt, improved. It's teaching kids to be consumers, not to
> be creators.
>
> - Bert -
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:42:32 +0800
> From: Carlos Nazareno <object404 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
> To: devel at lists.laptop.org
> Message-ID:
> <c58c2c4a1003231742s2f25c8d8n6e09065f000721e5 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> I don't get it.
>
> 1) Flash is no more "evil" as Java was years ago when it was closed
> source and it was being taught at universities.
>
> There is now an open-source SDK (Flex SDK (there's 2 versions, the
> closed source and the open source one)) with which you can produce
> AVM2 SWFs, and you can give away your AS3 sourcecode all you want.
>
> In fact, if Firefox & Chrome did not exist and let's say the only web
> browsers that existed were closed-source ones like IE, Netscape,
> Opera, Safari, would you say that HTML + Javascript is an
> inappropriate tool for creating learning materials? Because that is
> exactly the same situation.
>
> Martin's previous arguments about the quality of educational content
> is not a problem with a platform like flash, it is a problem about the
> the content that is being deployed.
>
> 2) You have hundreds of Flash multimedia/game developers that
> outnumber Python game/multimedia developers. Why add an extra layer of
> hassle for them to create content for the XO?
>
> (I still am not able to get sound running on Gnash on the XO.)
>
> There are thousands of Java developers in the world today, and for all
> intents and purposes, AS3 has more or less the same syntax as Java.
> JRE is a resource hog compared to Flash,
>
> Moreover, Flash has authoring tools which make it very easy to create
> integrated multimedia content (vector/raster graphics, sound,
> keyboard/mouse inputs, etc).
>
> There's a new flame war going on, HTML5 vs Flash and it's the new
> Macs vs PC, but you won't see Flash dying anytime soon. You want to
> know why? The web is ruled by designers and not developers. You don't
> have to be a "real programmer" to create interactive rich media
> content for Flash.
>
> 3) Honestly, I find the reasoning that everything has to be open
> source in order for it to be good for kids. I mean do you have to be a
> mechanic to be able to drive a car? Do you have to be an electrical
> engineer to watch Sesame Street on TV?
>
> Does a child really need to tinker with the source code of an
> educational game to be able to gain benefits from it? Moreover, I
> think that's asking too much given the fact that even high school
> students have problems grasping BASIC.
>
> I think this is a case of open source fundamentalism trumping educational
> goals.
>
> There are hundreds of multimedia authors out there who can create
> content for the XO, but IMHO sugarization & python + python only is a
> gateway that is hampering the availability of content for the XO.
>
> In a sense, this makes the XO an environment that is just about as
> locked-in as the iPhone.
>
> Why is allowing additional tools & a new pool of content creators bad for
> OLPC?
>
> -Naz
>
>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-January/003516.html
>>
>> (This isn't an official OLPC policy; I didn't talk with anyone at OLPC
>> before writing it.)
>>
>> - Chris.
>> --
>> Chris Ball <cjb at laptop.org>
>> One Laptop Per Child
>>
>
> --
> carlos nazareno
> http://twitter.com/object404
> http://www.object404.com
> --
> interactive media specialist
> zen graffiti studios
> http://www.zengraffiti.com
> --
> "if you don't like the way the world is running,
> then change it instead of just complaining."
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 11
> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2010 08:48:24 +0800
> From: Carlos Nazareno <object404 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: Adobe Flash 10.1 + AIR 2.0 on the XO
> To: devel at lists.laptop.org
> Message-ID:
> <c58c2c4a1003231748x671a1e37t1667a86e4ec95bb7 at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> crap. hit the send key before proof-reading.
>
> Edits:
>
> -> There are thousands of Java developers in the world today, and for all
> intents and purposes, AS3 has more or less the same syntax as Java so
> you now have an additonal large pool of developers who can create
> content.
> Also, an aside, JRE is a resource hog compared to Flash that's why
> Flash is commonly accepted way to deploy multimedia content
> (especially for a low-resource environment like the XO).
>
> -> Honestly, I find the reasoning that everything has to be open
> source in order for it to be good for kids a non sequitur.
>
> On 3/24/10, Carlos Nazareno <object404 at gmail.com> wrote:
>> I don't get it.
>>
>> 1) Flash is no more "evil" as Java was years ago when it was closed
>> source and it was being taught at universities.
>>
>> There is now an open-source SDK (Flex SDK (there's 2 versions, the
>> closed source and the open source one)) with which you can produce
>> AVM2 SWFs, and you can give away your AS3 sourcecode all you want.
>>
>> In fact, if Firefox & Chrome did not exist and let's say the only web
>> browsers that existed were closed-source ones like IE, Netscape,
>> Opera, Safari, would you say that HTML + Javascript is an
>> inappropriate tool for creating learning materials? Because that is
>> exactly the same situation.
>>
>> Martin's previous arguments about the quality of educational content
>> is not a problem with a platform like flash, it is a problem about the
>> the content that is being deployed.
>>
>> 2) You have hundreds of Flash multimedia/game developers that
>> outnumber Python game/multimedia developers. Why add an extra layer of
>> hassle for them to create content for the XO?
>>
>> (I still am not able to get sound running on Gnash on the XO.)
>>
>> There are thousands of Java developers in the world today, and for all
>> intents and purposes, AS3 has more or less the same syntax as Java.
>> JRE is a resource hog compared to Flash,
>>
>> Moreover, Flash has authoring tools which make it very easy to create
>> integrated multimedia content (vector/raster graphics, sound,
>> keyboard/mouse inputs, etc).
>>
>> There's a new flame war going on, HTML5 vs Flash and it's the new
>> Macs vs PC, but you won't see Flash dying anytime soon. You want to
>> know why? The web is ruled by designers and not developers. You don't
>> have to be a "real programmer" to create interactive rich media
>> content for Flash.
>>
>> 3) Honestly, I find the reasoning that everything has to be open
>> source in order for it to be good for kids. I mean do you have to be a
>> mechanic to be able to drive a car? Do you have to be an electrical
>> engineer to watch Sesame Street on TV?
>>
>> Does a child really need to tinker with the source code of an
>> educational game to be able to gain benefits from it? Moreover, I
>> think that's asking too much given the fact that even high school
>> students have problems grasping BASIC.
>>
>> I think this is a case of open source fundamentalism trumping educational
>> goals.
>>
>> There are hundreds of multimedia authors out there who can create
>> content for the XO, but IMHO sugarization & python + python only is a
>> gateway that is hampering the availability of content for the XO.
>>
>> In a sense, this makes the XO an environment that is just about as
>> locked-in as the iPhone.
>>
>> Why is allowing additional tools & a new pool of content creators bad for
>> OLPC?
>>
>> -Naz
>>
>>> http://lists.sugarlabs.org/archive/iaep/2009-January/003516.html
>>>
>>> (This isn't an official OLPC policy; I didn't talk with anyone at OLPC
>>> before writing it.)
>>>
>>> - Chris.
>>> --
>>> Chris Ball <cjb at laptop.org>
>>> One Laptop Per Child
>>>
>>
>> --
>> carlos nazareno
>> http://twitter.com/object404
>> http://www.object404.com
>> --
>> interactive media specialist
>> zen graffiti studios
>> http://www.zengraffiti.com
>> --
>> "if you don't like the way the world is running,
>> then change it instead of just complaining."
>>
>
>
> --
> carlos nazareno
> http://twitter.com/object404
> http://www.object404.com
> --
> interactive media specialist
> zen graffiti studios
> http://www.zengraffiti.com
> --
> "if you don't like the way the world is running,
> then change it instead of just complaining."
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Devel mailing list
> Devel at lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
>
>
> End of Devel Digest, Vol 49, Issue 43
> *************************************
>
--
carlos nazareno
http://twitter.com/object404
http://www.object404.com
--
interactive media specialist
zen graffiti studios
http://www.zengraffiti.com
--
"if you don't like the way the world is running,
then change it instead of just complaining."
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