OLPC Flash discussion

[SJ Klein]

Cc:ing the devel list.

Yes, there is a lot of Python work in and around OLPC; some people are 
also trying to use pygame as a model/kernel for a general intro-to-Python 
tutorial...  Bridge builder is pretty fly; I don't see why something with 
a similar physics engine couldnt' be built without high-end requirements.

SJ


On Thu, 18 Jan 2007, Ben Sawyer wrote:

> I don't know the author per-se but InXile Entertainment just licensed the 
> rights to make it into a game.  While I think the educational aspects of it 
> are not as explicit as other things people cite we shouldn't forget the sheer 
> creativity it represents and the ideas it offers in terms iterative 
> development and other interesting aspects.
>
> There are many etoys (bridge builder anyone? 
> http://downloads.theregister.co.uk/Windows/Games/Building/bridge-builder.html 
> yes high-end requirements but humor me) and games that could be identified 
> for the laptops and of course many are built in Flash but I agree in general 
> that part of the core goal really being discussed here is the idea that there 
> be some etoy/game like programming system that is ideally suited to the 
> laptops.
>
> My gut tells me the script flash within flash is probably a dead end for any 
> number of reasons but I think it's a good conversation to force on adobe 
> (even if it were a special version they did and then ported everywhere) on. 
> I don't know enough about Squeak to know if it really fits the vision of 
> things like Click-n-Play and other "gamemaker/etoy" maker products we've had 
> in gaming but my sense is that despite it being used to make games by kids 
> that it probably doesn't do it to the degree and focus those products have. 
> It's complimentary to some extent perhaps even a step above as it moves you 
> further up the programming scale then a gamemaker but again I don't see it 
> 1:1.
>
> The critical issue will not be the issues of scripting or programming but of 
> the entire IDE and graphics process which is where from an etoy/game making 
> perspective is where the hard work lies.    Perhaps something that is written 
> to combine SDL with PyGame? (www.pygame.org)  Again the problem here is that 
> there isn't much of an IDE and graphics environment here but we might be able 
> to construct something with this that then works easily as I believe Python 
> support is quite heavy with OLPC.  The students at CMU's Entertainment 
> Technology Center are working with PyGame and Jesse Schell from CMU 
> recommended it highly.
>
> Sorry for lurking but my .02
>
> - Ben
>
> On Jan 17, 2007, at 12:23 AM, Samuel Klein wrote:
>
>> 
>> I love this discussion.  I also REALLY want linerider on the laptops...
>> Does anyone know *fsk , the author?
>> http://lineridervideos.blogspot.com/
>> 
>> We're reaching thread-length and cc: length for a public list.
>> Can we take this discussion [and the notes below] to devel at laptop ?
>> 
>> SJ
>> 
>> 
>> On Tue, 16 Jan 2007, GameMogul wrote:
>> 
>>> As far as networking would go, *that* is where we have our proprietary 
>>> coding, right?  Because there's no way to *just* use AS for multiplayer 
>>> flash games, you have to have server-side code (whatever language) to 
>>> control this, and interact with each client.  Multiplayer usage won't be 
>>> supported in non-OLPC machines, right?
>>> 
>>> And to answer Joshua, loading local files is easy if the files are 
>>> XML-based (shortened with URL-shortener):
>>> http://geobay.com/f12341
>>> 
>>> You are right in that you can't save files... like you think.  Look at 
>>> what line-rider does.  How does it remember the 'levels' you make? 
>>> SharedObjects.
>>> 
>>> Here's an example of LineRider's cache path for M$ (honestly, I don't know 
>>> Gnash's Flash cache for Linux... likely 
>>> /home/<user>/.gnash/etc./etc./etc.):
>>> 
>>> For the exe:
>>> C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Application Data\
>>> Macromedia\Flash Player\#SharedObjects\
>>> <some stupid cache name: LVSZR946>\localhost\
>>> Documents and Settings\<user name>\Desktop\
>>> LineRider_beta.exe\undefined.sol
>>> 
>>> For the web player:
>>> C:\Documents and Settings\<user name>\Application Data\
>>> Macromedia\Flash Player\#SharedObjects\
>>> <some stupid cache name: LVSZR946>\ic1.deviantart.com\
>>> fs12\f\2006\266\6\f\engin2_16devart.swf\undefined.sol
>>> 
>>> In this final folder is a Shared Object Library (SOL) file, where *all* 
>>> the level information is saved.  There is a (albeit... not nice way) 
>>> possible way to save user input, and just have it available next time they 
>>> launch the application.
>>> 
>>> I know it's no the best solution, but I'm just putting it out there.
>>> -Zak
>>> 
>>> Alan Kay wrote:
>>>> The plan is go further than this. The thinking has been that each OLPC 
>>>> machine will be a server, and can serve itself if there is no network 
>>>> connectivity.
>>>> Again, there is no problem making any of this happen on the OLPC machine. 
>>>> The entire environment and permissions are controlled. It's helping 
>>>> children who don't have these machines in the rest of the world to be 
>>>> part of the same conversation and activities.
>>>> Cheers,
>>>> Alan
>>>> At 03:25 PM 1/16/2007, Joshua Ellis wrote:
>>>>> Okay, I understand now. The key is to have the simple IDE easily
>>>>> deployable across platforms, not just the SWFs it creates. I'm sorry
>>>>> -- I lost that somewhere.
>>>>> One of the main problems is that Flash *cannot* interact with the host
>>>>> file system at all. It can't write files. I don't even think it can
>>>>> *load* local files. (I've never tried, but it's a pretty good
>>>>> assumption.) And this is unlikely to change -- it's a security thing.
>>>>> Adobe's Flex Server can compile apps over the network on the fly:
>>>>> check out http://try.flex.org/index.cfm to see an example. And this
>>>>> would be possible to replicate as an open-source tool.
>>>>> SJ mentioned to me the idea of a server OLPC as well as a client one
>>>>> -- from what he'd said, I'd envisioned a sort of LAN where all of the
>>>>> laptop OLPCs could connect to one server OLPC, which could function as
>>>>> a router, or a machine for a teacher. If this is the case, couldn't
>>>>> one run a compiler on *that* machine?
>>>>> jze
>>>>> On 1/16/07, GameMogul <zak at arkitek.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Well, if we had the ability to use outside applications, then, like 
>>>>>> Alan
>>>>>> said, why are we stuck to Flash to begin with?  If we want this to play
>>>>>> on ALL flash-capable computers... it has to built-in.  If there are
>>>>>> external applications or external linkages to the Internet required
>>>>>> (i.e. server-side scripts), then it is very limited; such as, as Alan
>>>>>> said, school-districts not allowing the installation of executables.
>>>>>> Which also brings up the point of Internet-dependency, *requiring*
>>>>>> server scripts would make it so that people had to have a connection.
>>>>>> What if a laptop is out of range of others?  Unfortunately, you 
>>>>>> couldn't
>>>>>> say we'd just use a PHP engine on the laptop, because 1) large
>>>>>> size-bloat there and 2) it wouldn't work for just your average Joe on 
>>>>>> an
>>>>>> M$ box who won't have a PHP engine on his computer.
>>>>>> -Zak
>>>>>> Joshua Ellis wrote:
>>>>>>> Also, has anybody looked at Apollo yet?
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/Apollo:developerfaq
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> If you could get Adobe to release/write a version of the Apollo
>>>>>>> runtime for OLPC, that would kick serious ass -- you could develop
>>>>>>> apps for the OLPC in HTML/Flash/Flex/CSS/Javascript!
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> jze
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>> On 1/16/07, Joshua Ellis <jzellis at gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Also, here's a consideration: Flex generates Flash apps based on the
>>>>>>>> MXML language. So wouldn't it be possible to create a simple Flash 
>>>>>>>> IDE
>>>>>>>> that generates MXML files, which could then be passed to a compiler,
>>>>>>>> rather than trying to make Flash evaluate user-written code from
>>>>>>>> within the player itself?
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> Oh, my poor head is aching. :-)
>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>> jze