<html><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>On Monday, we had great meeting with the folks from <a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Sugar">Sugar</a>. Here are notes and the transcript. (I may have munged up the technical discussions, so please jump in and correct!) - Mimi</div><div><br></div><div>*****</div><div>We began with general introductions. Grant, Jeffrey and I attended. Sheila and Jos eavesdropped;) I think there were 7 people from Sugar over the course of the meeting. (I may be missing some people who came and went.)</div><div><br></div><div>We each gave brief histories of our respective projects.</div><div><br></div><div>For those of you who are unfamiliar with Sugar, here is Ben Schwartz's brief summary:</div><div><br></div><div>The people who founded OLPC wanted to make a really cheap laptop, which meant it couldn't run any standard desktop, because it wouldn't have enough memory/CPU/disk.</div><div> <div><br></div><div>They also wanted to provide an operating environment designed for learning, and specifically for their vision</div> <div>of exploratory, freeform learning.</div> <div><br></div><div>So they decided to write a new desktop, using GTK (because it is mature and support i18n well) and Python (because it allows students to explore and modify the code).</div> <div><br></div><div>Sugar is the result of that. eben is the lead UI designer, and tomeu and marcopg wrote most of the code.</div> <div><br></div><div>There is also a team at Pentagram that has worked on visual/graphic design for the UI</div><div><br></div><div>*****</div></div><div>The lead-off question was: <b>Can Sugar use Chandler's calendar?</b></div><div><br></div><div>Loading all of Chandler 1.0 onto Sugar is too much, but the calendar by itself for example is feasible.</div><div>- Porting pieces of Chandler would be an interesting approach. Sugar team is potentially interested in anything that might be relevant / doable, as they don't have very much in the way of task management or scheduling right now.</div><div><br></div><div>This led of course to a brief discussion about whether Sugar supported Wx.</div><div>-- The conclusion was unclear, but did not seem to be in the affirmative.</div><div><br></div><div>Sugar devs were particularly interested in the performance work we've done in the re-arch. Jeffrey pointed them to Phillip Eby's Trellis documentation. <a href="http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/Trellis">http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/Trellis</a></div><div><br></div><div>I briefly reviewed some of Chandler's core concepts: Integrated information management. Triage and focus management. Calendar is simply one view of your data, etc. </div><div><br></div><div>Which led to a discussion about Sugar's "Journal" and how it's similar to / different from Chandler's Triage List.</div><div><br></div><div>Also touched on the 2 projects sharing models.</div><div>- Sugar - Synchronous sharing, a lot of work on presence: Everything is designed to work in the absence of a server and/or reliable internet service</div><div>- Chandler - Asynchronous sharing, no work on presence</div><div><br></div><div>I went over our design process. In particular user interviews, testing and gathering user feedback through the list.</div><div><br></div><div>Sugar's development team faces some tough challenges when it comes to user testing. They have limited access to their users (1000s of miles away), who are also not likely to provide feedback by participating actively on a mailing list.</div><div><br></div><div>Jeffrey asked about linking to documents in Sugar?</div><div>Unfortunately, it is actively discouraged in Sugar for various reasons right now.</div><div><br></div><div>Which brought us to the issue of data storage. Chandler and Sugar's back ends are significantly different.</div><div>- Sugar: filesystem approach</div><div>- Chandler: email approach</div><div><br></div><div><div>NEXT ACTIONS</div><div>- Sugar: build Chandler (particular the rearch UI)</div><div>- Jeffrey put recent documentation up somewhere globally readable: <a href="http://people.osafoundation.org/~jeffrey/rearch_documentation/">http://people.osafoundation.org/~jeffrey/rearch_documentation/</a></div></div><div><br></div><div>Relevant Sugar documentation for Chandler-devs:</div><div>- <a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Olpcfs">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Olpcfs</a></div><div>- <a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Low-level_Activity_API#Datastore">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Low-level_Activity_API#Datastore</a></div><div>- <a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Journal_reloaded">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Journal_reloaded</a></div><div><br></div><div><div>Schedule another meeting? Talk more about storage?</div><div><br></div><div>*****</div><div>TRANSCRIPT</div><div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:54:49 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: Hi, I'm Ben Schwartz</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:55:06 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hi bemasc, pleased to virtually meet you</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:55:13 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Hi Ben, this is Mimi</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:56:15 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH notes for bemasc that Chandler folks are</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">having a pre-meeting in #chandler, anyone's welcome to read back on</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">what we've been talking about,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/All">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Activities/All</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:56:29 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>whoops, wrong link, I meant</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://chandlerproject.org/script/getIrcTranscript.cgi?channel=chandler&date=20081020&startTime=1016">http://chandlerproject.org/script/getIrcTranscript.cgi?channel=chandler&date=20081020&startTime=1016</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:56:59 --><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gbaillie</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(n=<a href="mailto:gbaillie@adsl-71-146-93-54.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net">gbaillie@adsl-71-146-93-54.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net</a>) has joined</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">#sugar-meeting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:57:33 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Hello, I'm Chris Ball, an OLPC developer. I</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">might disappear during the meeting to relocate to OLPC's office, got</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">trapped in meetings at home. :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:57:48 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hi chris</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:58:26 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hi all, Tomeu Vizoso here, contracted by OLPC</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to work on Sugar</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:58:41 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hi, I'm Grant Baillie, a Chandler developer</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:59:04 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>still in an irc meeting that is (hopefully)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">about to finish</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:59:22 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hi folks, I'm Jeffrey Harris, a Chandler developer</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:59:34 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I'm Mimi Yin, Designer</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:59:36 --><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>marcopg</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(n=<a href="mailto:marco@host84-115-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it">marco@host84-115-dynamic.9-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it</a>) has joined</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">#sugar-meeting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:59:39 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>for Chandler ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:59:41 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>OLPC has a few too many meetings... a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">familiar problem, I'm sure</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 19:59:56 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>too many is in the eye of the beholder</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:00:37 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>IRC meetings are less burdensome than face</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to face meetings, although they don't have the same emotional bond</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">building capacity...</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:00:40 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>the ones in irc are easier to handle ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:00:46 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>jinx ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:01:03 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>yeah, IRC lets me be in two meetings at once,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">like right now.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:01:21 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(the previous one was actually rescheduled to</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">make time for this one, so I should yell at people to finish up.)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:01:34 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>perhaps we could start the meeting with a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">summary of the history of each project?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:01:44 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>sugar's one is quite short ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:02:36 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>sure, though Chandler's isn't</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:03:44 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu: go for it :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:04:03 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>marcopg has been around since pretty much the beginning</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:04:13 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>even since sugar was green ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:05:08 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I wasn't here in the beginning, so to me the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">history is prett simple.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:05:34 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The people who founded OLPC wanted to make a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">really cheap laptop, which meant it couldn't run any standard desktop,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">because it wouldn't have enough memory/CPU/disk.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:06:10 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>They also wanted to provide an operating</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">environment designed for learning, and specifically for their vision</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of exploratory, freeform learning.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:06:55 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So they decided to write a new desktop, using</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">GTK (because it is mature and support i18n well) and Python (because</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">it allows students to explore and modify the code).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:07:04 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>here here</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:07:41 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Sugar is the result of that. eben is the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">lead UI designer, and tomeu and marcopg wrote most of the code.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:08:01 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>There is also a team at Pentagram that has</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">worked on visual/graphic design for the UI</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:08:34 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>where is everyone, geographically?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:08:46 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Boston</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:08:53 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(I mean myself.)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:09:07 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(San Francisco Bay Area for gbaillie and me)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:09:27 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Prague, CR</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:09:55 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(Cambridge, MA here.)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:09:56 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>most of the sugar team is remote: .it, .de,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">.za, .in, .cz</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:10:31 <eben><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Cambridge myself, as well, though I live in</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Providence these days.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:11:19 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>erikos (Simon Schampijer) has also made big</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">contributions to the Sugar shell (the desktop, we could say)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:11:47 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>there have been other RedHat employees working</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">on Sugar at some points</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:11:56 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but now is only Marco</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:12:18 <erikos><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hello from me from germany</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:13:04 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So my initial question is: can we use</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Chandler to get a calendar for Sugar?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:13:18 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>currently, we have no calendar/scheduling</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">capability at all</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:13:41 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>obviously there's more too it than this</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:13:51 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but at first approximation, yes ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:13:57 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>to, not too</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:13:57 --><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>wastrel (n=wastrel@nylug/member/wastrel) has</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">joined #sugar-meeting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:14:17 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>On the mailing list, Davor said "XO just</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">doesn't have the CPU power or memory to</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:14:20 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>run Chandler. "</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:14:28 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>At the moment, we've got a 600 line or so</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">calendar UI that's pure wx</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:14:45 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>it doesn't take much memory (of course I'm</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">measuring on a machine with 2GB of RAM)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:03 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>sounds pretty slim</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:12 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>neat.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:13 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: how feature complete do you consider it?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:14 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The XO has 256 MB total, and our software</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">isn't so efficient, so we only have about 116 MB free.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:34 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>there's no model for recurrence or anything</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">like that in that, it's part of a proof of concept for our</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">rearchitecture project</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:40 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: I think we use 116MB</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:49 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu: ok. 140 MB free.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:51 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>yup</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:53 <eben><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Do we support wx? I recall there being some</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">talk about it when someone tried to port logo, and I never heard the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">result.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:15:57 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>still pretty bad ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:16:11 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>eben: true, I never heard back</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:16:14 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>ucb logo</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:16:17 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH backs up and gives a 5 line Chandler synopsis</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:16:33 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>eben: My hunch is that wx should be easy</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">enough, since wx is a wrapper for GTK (from our perspective).</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:16:47 --><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>unmadindu (n=sayamind@gnu-india/admin/unmadindu)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">has joined #sugar-meeting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:16:58 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Chandler started as an</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Agenda-for-the-new-millenium, which could be thought of as a PIM</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">construction kit</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:17:10 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(Agenda as in Lotus Agenda)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:17:17 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a book got written,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://www.dreamingincode.com">http://www.dreamingincode.com</a>/ (note that we're on quite good terms</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with Scott, we like his book)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:17:39 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>that's good ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:17:41 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a PIM construction kit was hard, rather</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">than drown in the ocean, we focused in on events, task lists, focus</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">management, and small group sharing/collaboration</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:17:51 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I think some of us have read the book -- I heard</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">a 20-minute interview with Scott, but haven't read it yet.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:18:23 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>We realized a year or two ago that the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">legacy architecture for PIM construction kit was too big a behemoth,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">started working on Trellis based, testable, "Humble UI".</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">rearchitecture or rearch for short</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:18:29 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>eben: We don't like Wx very much because the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">core of Sugar does things like provide toolbars and widgets that use</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">GTK, and you won't get access to those in Wx.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:18:37 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>But other than that.. could be worse, etc.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:18:49 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: What's Trellis?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:18:52 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>at this point, we've got old architecture,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Chandler 1.0, which works, but it has performance issues</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:18:59 <eben><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb: I see...that would pose some problems.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:19:04 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/Trellis">http://peak.telecommunity.com/DevCenter/Trellis</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:19:20 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>pretty nifty. I don't think we've proved</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">it scales well yet, but I'm excited about it</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:19:32 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(don't know if gbaillie would agree with</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that description)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:19:40 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>eben: in short, you'd end up with something</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">similar to etoys, I think -- sort of integrated but not quite.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:19:42 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>that's Chandler in a nutshell :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:19:48 <eben><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb: right.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:19:51 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: thanks!</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:20:13 <eben><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I'd prefer to limit those instances, when at</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">all possible.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:20:22 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: (to avoid issues with running Wx, do</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">you have a webapp version we could run locally instead?)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:20:27 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(i'd agree pretty much, JeffreyH)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:20:33 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone notes, quietly, that he is now present.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:20:45 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>eben: I tend to expect the opposite of cjb.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Because wx renders through GTK, our themes would apply automatically</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to an wx application.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:20:57 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: toolbar = Activity.Toolbar()</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:21:11 <eben><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: themes, probably, but what about our</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">custom widgets?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:21:12 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hi, just wanted to add something to</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">JeffreyH's description</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:21:18 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb: that seems easy enough to throw in. I'm</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">not suggesting running Chandler unmodified.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:21:32 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>ok. I agree with bemasc that we certainly</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">shouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:21:42 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar woops will wait for a break</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:21:50 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: oh, neat, this is a little like the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">reactive functional programming stuff.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:21:56 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: please continue.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:01 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hi</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:03 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb: Yeah, I forgot to mention as part of</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the nutshell that Chandler is both a desktop application and a server</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">for sharing, with a web ui on top of the server</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:17 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so i realize that the focus right now for</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">you guys is calendaring?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:22 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: not quite.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:24 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(apologies if that is oversimplifying)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:29 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: we're also deeply interested in the sharing.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:29 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>ok go ahead</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:35 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>ok</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:36 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: hm, not necessarily. we don't have any</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">kind of calendar/PIM/stuff, so I think everything you have is</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">interesting.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:39 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH reads back for a minute, there's a lot</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">going on, which is good ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:43 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>ha</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:44 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>oh, yes, we like to share. ;-)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:45 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>well so</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:50 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so i guess for chandler</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:22:53 --><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>moondawg</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">(n=<a href="mailto:chatzill@c-67-161-5-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net">chatzill@c-67-161-5-213.hsd1.ca.comcast.net</a>) has joined</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">#sugar-meeting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:23:00 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>in the same way that sugar positions functionality</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:23:04 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>as activities as opposed to apps</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:23:16 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>calendaring in chandler...is not really a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">free-standing thing in and of itself</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:23:31 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but is one piece in a larger notion of focus</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">management</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:23:36 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>or organizing information</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:23:46 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>in that sense "chandler" as a verb</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:23:57 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>is really the "organize" or "manage" acitvity</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:24:06 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and scheduling things on a calendar is one</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of the ways to do that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:24:09 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but really, the triage list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:24:16 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>is the central point of entry - point of return</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:24:18 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>for the app</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:24:30 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>does that make sense?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:24:32 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>"triage list" sounds a bit like "journal"...</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:24:33 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH looks for a few screenshots</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:24:34 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I see. So you're saying the calendar is</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">somewhere that information can end up, but that's not the point of</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">gathering the information in the first place.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:24:50 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but future-facing rather than past-facing.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:02 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>well it's past, present and future</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:11 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: is your sharing interactive or batch-based?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:14 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>it's a time-based view</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:21 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>you mean real-time?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:23 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone: actually the HIG calls for the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">journal to be able to deal with notes in the future</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:23 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>or asynchronous?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:38 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu: but nobody's ever worked out how that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">should work.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:39 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>yes, m_stone. gbaillie and I were</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">discussing Sugar before this meeting started, we didn't quickly find</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">APIs for the Journal (though we didn't search that hard). I'm not</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">clear on how much the Journal is aimed at being a history, and how</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">much it's meant to be an edited-by-the-user focus point</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:53 <eben><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone: indeed. I had some ideas written up</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">about building future events into the Journal, as calendar entries,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">optionally with alarms.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:55 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>there is overlap between chandler and journal</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:25:57 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: well, adding reminders should be quite</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">straightforward, isn't it?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:26:08 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu: it's far from obvious to me.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:26:17 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>this is a screenshot</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:26:18 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: git is a prototypical model of what</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">I mean by 'batch-based'.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:26:19 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>of the triage list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:26:20</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="http://chandlerproject.org/pub/Projects/ProductTour/windows_triagelist.png">http://chandlerproject.org/pub/Projects/ProductTour/windows_triagelist.png</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:26:27 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: as opposed to, say, google docs.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:26:43 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH suspects that since hamstar isn't a git</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">user, that doesn't mean much to her :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:26:50 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>heh</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:27:00 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone: it's batch-based, all over SMTP, IIUC.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:27:21 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so conceptually, journal is a log of</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">everything you're doing through time</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:27:26 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>calendar is your schedule through time</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:27:28 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>the triage list</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:27:33 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>is more like, irrespective of time</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:27:40 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>what do i want to be focusing on?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:27:51 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: the screenshot communicated the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">purpose quite well.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:27:58 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>:)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:28:15 <Hyakugei><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone - the sharing, which is done via</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the server (although there is also sharing via email) is done async.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:28:36 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Hyakugei just a chandler user</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:28:38 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>eben notes as an aside to bemasc that he thinks</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">reminders/calendar entries would be fairly straightforward to add.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:28:41 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>compare with</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Journal">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Journal</a> and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Journal%2C_reloaded">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Journal%2C_reloaded</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:28:45 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I love that focus management thing, that's what I need!</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:28:51 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>:)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:29:17 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>the asynchronous nature of sharing in chandler</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:29:29 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>is meant to fill the gap between real-time</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">meetings / chat sessions and email</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:29:33 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Our sharing model is very batch based, not</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">necessarily over SMTP, usually these days over a custom HTTP protocol</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to our server, representing changes as diffs.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:29:36 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so that people can work on the same things</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in dribs and drabs</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:29:40 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>throughout their day</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:29:52 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>interesting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:29:59 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so you could imagine 2 students working on a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">hw assignment</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:00 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>homework</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:03 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we have done a lot of work on continuous</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">real-time collaboration</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:06 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and each contributing ideas</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:10 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and very little on "async" collaboration</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:11 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:22 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: good to know. to date, we've</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">concentrated heavily on the real-time no-divergence sharing problems.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:29 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>yeah, that's true. (we have collaborative word</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">processing and things like that.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:29 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>of course, we would love it if chandler</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">could do synchronous stuff too</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:44 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: async collaboration would be done with</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">entry sharing and some activity-dependent merging support</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:30:59 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu: so goes the theory, anyway. :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:31:01 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu: there are many ways it could be done</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:31:12 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone: well, it's already done by that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:31:15 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: we've also paid a lot of attention</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to presence technology.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:31:18 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone: just that quite crudely</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:31:40 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we should grow some more support for async sharing</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:31:52 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: mainly divided up by network</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">environment -- w/ server, ethernet w/out server, and wifi w/out</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">server.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:31:59 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>presence would be really neat actually</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:32:03 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>combined with asynchronous stuff</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:32:08 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>meaning even if someone is offline</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:32:11 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>you could see the last thing they did</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:32:16 <eben><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>shared calendar activities seem pretty</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">straightforward in the Sugar model; it would just be a shared calendar</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">a la Gcal or something.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:32:18 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>sort of a ghost presence ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:32:30 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>it's actually kind of amazing to me how</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">much we're working in the same space, but how little overlap we have.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">While we're interested in presence/real time stuff, we've done nothing</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with it</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:32:40 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: empathy in GNOME would help with</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">presence, but is not as portable as you'd like :/</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:32:44 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I *think* that's a good thing ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:01 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:04 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: it's a big space...</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:11 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>indeed</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:15 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I want to back up for a second and talk</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">about wx vs. gtk</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:21 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I'm also interested in how Chandler has been</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">designing its user experience</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:21 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>sure.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:28 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>The tricky thing about Sugar is that, when</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">possible, everything is designed to function in the absence of any</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">server or reliable internet connection.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:36 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I understand you weren't just cloning an</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">existing closed source app</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:40 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and note that our rearch project is pretty</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">explicitly focused on not making the domain and interaction models</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">dependent on any specific presentation</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:41 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: and with users who can't read.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:33:43 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar we can touch on that after this tomeu</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:34:15 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>So, the fact that we've got an Apache</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">licensed wx proof-of-concept calendar UI</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:34:32 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>i'm somewhat curious as to what kind of</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">calendar you want for your users</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:34:38 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>was really meant as a place-holder for</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"we've put a lot of thought/energy into calendar UI" :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:35:15 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: it sounds like one or a couple of us</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">should get a chandler build environment and try out your UIs :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:35:28 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I imagine that to do something similar in</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">pygtk would be fairly easy, the hard part is figuring out what you</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">want and how to structure interaction, imho</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:36:06 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>that seems plausible to me.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:36:18 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>makes sense. we won't pretend that we know what</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">we want yet. ;-)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:36:57 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>that'd be great, cjb. Do note that the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">proof-of-concept calendar ui I'm talking about isn't the same as</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">what's in chandler 1.0. Oh, and it looks to me like the wx that ships</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">with Chandler 1.0 OS X is crashing drag and drop pretty reliably still</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">:(</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:36:57 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>One thing that interested me very much was</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that the Chandler rearch might use a D-Bus API to access the storage</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">backend</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:37:39 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone cries.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:37:46 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>heh.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:38:09 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>OLPC is divided into people who love dbus and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">people for whom every instance of an app speaking dbus is a travesty</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of.. something.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:38:22 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: awesome. do you have a pointer to the p-o-c UI?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:38:46 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I don't love dbus, but think it's inevitable</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">if we want to play in the GNOME desktop league</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:39:08 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>in fact, I wonder if there's someone who</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">actually loves dbus around</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:39:39 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>well, bemasc sounded enthusiastic :) anyway.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:39:46 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we have (outside) devs who are interested</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">in doing dbus-y stuff with the rearchitecture code</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:40:17 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I think d-bus is a pretty good way to</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">communicate with daemons, and daemons are often inevitable when trying</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to multiplex access to a central resource.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:40:57 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb: getting the env up and running is a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">little involved, the source code is</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://svn.osafoundation.org/chandler/branches/rearchitecture/Chandler-Platform/ocap/wxui/calendar_canvas.py">http://svn.osafoundation.org/chandler/branches/rearchitecture/Chandler-Platform/ocap/wxui/calendar_canvas.py</a>.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "> Oops, looks like that's 1543 lines, not 800 ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:41:08 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:41:21 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>nice we got it before it's 12000</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:41:28 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: yeah, I tried building from source</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">already, so I know it's involved :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:41:36 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb tried on x86-64 Fedora, which is apparently a mistake.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:41:52 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>how is chandler with ical/gcal/webcal...?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:42:57 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: oh, interesting, this app is totally</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">self-contained?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:43:01 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>yeah, cjb, getting the 1.0 codebase running</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">on 32 bit OSes is actually fairly painless, 64 bit, not so much</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:43:05 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(i.e. no imports from chandler modules?)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:43:23 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>yes, all the rearchitecture stuff doesn't</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">depend on legacy stuff</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:43:27 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>ooh</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:43:40 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and that module specifically only depends</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">on wx and PyICU plus a few resource files for graphics</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:43:52 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: tomeu still wants to hear from</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">hamstar about interaction design, I think.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:44:02 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hi</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:44:11 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu: could you restate your question?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:44:47 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>just wanted to hear about how chandler decided</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">which user experience should be given to their users</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:44:57 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I guess that's a bit of history as well</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:45:00 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>heh</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:45:11 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>well there was certainly a lot of user research</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:45:23 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we started with a very vague, generic target user</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:45:26 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>"info-centric people"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:45:32 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and gradually narrowed it down</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:45:39 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>to be pretty specific</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:45:50 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>basically "knowledgeworkers" which we define as</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:46:07 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>people who consider the output of their work</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:46:18 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>to be information itself</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:46:37 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:46:41 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>you can be consuming a lot of information</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:46:48 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but if your job is to summarize it</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:46:59 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>that's different from</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:47:09 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>just someone who is consuming a lot of information :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:47:28 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>for ex, chandler isn't = rss reader</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:47:48 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>the workflows were originally designed</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:47:49 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I see</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:04 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>phew, i realize even our narrowing can sound</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">generic ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:16 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>based on what people seemed to be trying to do</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:17 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>with traditional tools</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:19 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>like outlook</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:20 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and palm</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:25 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but had to sort of hack stuff</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:28 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>to get it to work correctly</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:39 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>e.g. people had all kinds of weird things</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">they did with flagging email</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:44 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu: sounds like me.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:46 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>or emailing stuff to themselves</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:48:57 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so chandler is designed to do those things</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">more naturally</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:49:00 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: (ah, I need ocap.wxui.* too)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:49:13 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>like instead of emailing yourself, you can</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">set a tickler alarm to have something come back into NOW later</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:49:23 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>or instead of cutting and pasting email info</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">onto your calendar,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:49:30 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>you just "stamp it" and put it directly onto</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">the calendar</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:49:46 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we did a lot of lightweight usability testing</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:49:51 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>before the preview release</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:49:56 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but since preview, we've mostly</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:50:11 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>made our design decisions from processing</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and interacting with the user community</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:50:21 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu would like to hear a bit more about usability testing</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:50:30 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so the testing</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:50:34 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: re:iCal, early on in my tenure at</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">OSAF I wrote a Python iCalendar library. For the most part Chandler's</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">integration with iCal is good, although our defaults are a little</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">focused on failing when something goes wrong, really for 1.0 I</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">probably should've changed those to warnings (there's a lot of invalid</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">iCal out there)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:50:35 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>spanned conceptual tests</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:50:44 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>like, do people get the idea of traiging</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:50:45 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>triaging</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:50:49 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we just set up buckets</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:50:58 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gCal is basically iCal with recurrence</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">broken beyond recognition, so we work fine with gCal as long as</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">there's no recurrence</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:51:02 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and did sorting exercises with made up tasks</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:51:09 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>or we had people do a braindump of what was</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">on their mind</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:51:20 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we also did "interaction" tests</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:51:24 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>to fine-tune things like</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:51:28 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>the stamping buttons</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:51:36 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>to star notes and put them on the calendar</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">or address them</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:51:59 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>it was all pretty simple</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:04 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>a lot of paper prototyping</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:17 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and then of course testing on the app</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:24 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: where did you got people to play with?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:33 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: where did you do these tests? Did</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">you post flyers "software testers wanted" or...?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:37 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>well mostly through friends</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:43 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>no more word of mouth</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:46 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>did you had professional QA people?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:48 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we've participated in a number of</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:51 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>FLOSS events</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:52:57 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>they've helped find test subjects too</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:53:04 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we had a QA team up until January</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:53:10 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but that was less usability testing</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:53:30 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and more - is the app doing what it's</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">supposed to be doing?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:53:41 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>in the end, i think the most valuable</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">testing we've gotten</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:53:48 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>is live, "in the field" testing by users</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:53:56 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>interesting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:54:04 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>they give us feedback on workflow issues</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:54:11 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>that are hard to get at, in isolated test sessions</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:54:19 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>because people aren't really in their</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">"natural work mode"</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:54:27 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: who helps developers convert that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">information into modifications to the code?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:54:43 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>i guess me and sheila</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:54:52 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but more recently, i think the devs</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:54:57 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>have had a more hands-on approach</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:00 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(hm, I really have to relocate -- I'll catch up</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">on the backlog once I get to work, please keep going.)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:01 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>to interacting with users directly</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:09 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>unfortunately, our users are eight years old,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">4000 miles away, don't speak English, don't have a network connection,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and don't have an e-mail client.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:13 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and we discuss solutions together</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:20 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>yes, we are lucky</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:21 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: would be interested to hear if I can</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">get ocap.wxui.* without too many other deps.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:30 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>that our users email all day long, it's their job ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:33 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so we have lots of users and only a trickle</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">of feedback, much of which is hard to interpret.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:34 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: that was a good way to put it :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:41 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: true, but they have teachers, which</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">help quite a bit</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:55:53 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>is video out of reach?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:56:03 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>tomeu: some of them have teachers some of the time :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:56:04 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I think we can build a community where</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">developers are not so far away from the real users</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:56:20 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb: we don't need to hear a billion of kids</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">at the same time ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:56:40 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb: I think you basically need to checkout</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://svn.osafoundation.org/chandler/branches/rearchitecture/Chandler-Platform/">http://svn.osafoundation.org/chandler/branches/rearchitecture/Chandler-Platform/</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">and run setup.py develop. But it's possible Chandler-Platform depends</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">on something else in</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://svn.osafoundation.org/chandler/branches/rearchitecture/">http://svn.osafoundation.org/chandler/branches/rearchitecture/</a> Also,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">you need wx and PyICU.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:56:49 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: Sugar includes a video recording</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">activity (called Record), but it's very limited</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:56:57 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: excellent, thanks, got the latter two already.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:57:17 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we also don't yet have an easy way to send</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">things (like videos) over the network.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:57:18 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>it records the screen?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:57:28 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: no, it records from the built-in videocamera</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:57:29 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>no, we have a video camera in the laptop</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:57:32 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>oh cool right</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:57:40 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>people sometimes post things to youtube from their laptops</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:58:05 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>e.g. <a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOzBTGGVWNg">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOzBTGGVWNg</a> :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:58:06 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: cjb actually just built a little</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">video-screen-capture activity, but it hasn't been distributed</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:58:12 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so, how long do sugar meetings usually</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">last? Don't want to exhaust everyone ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:58:29 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we should probably follow up some other time</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:58:29 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: until we get to the magic Action Items stage!</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:58:35 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>you know</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:58:44 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb is right</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:58:50 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>which means it's time for Action Items</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:58:56 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb drumroll</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:59:13 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so... who wants to do something?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:59:22 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>cjb is getting Chandler building</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:59:26 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I'll get the rearch UI built</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:59:29 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>so you won't get at the usability issues</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">that come from cultural differences...but watching american kids will</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">get at workflow issues</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:59:38 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: it's a bit late for the people in europe :/</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:59:38 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>no promises about full Chandler ;-)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 20:59:52 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone: does chandler 1.0 sound like your</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">collaborative mailing list summarizer...?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:00:23 *<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar wow that is quite a video</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:00:28 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: is the rearch stuff being</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">documented somewhere?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:00:38 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: I was thinking of a realtime system. :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:00:42 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>the only page I saw was ... extremely vague</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:00:44 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: but there are certain similarities.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:00:56 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hamstar: it was taken by an</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">apparently-very-patient ten year old boy in Uruguay :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:00:56 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I'm interested in talking a little more</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">about whether/ how one goes about linking to a document in Sugar at</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">some point</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:01:23 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: Sugar, at the moment, provides no</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">way for one document to refer to another</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:01:35 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and actively discourages people from attempting this</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:01:47 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(though we're currently debating some ways</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">to change that)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:01:56 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>because documents are designed to be passed</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">over the network, and keeping track of references between them over an</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">unreliable network is terrifying</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:02:10 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: I don't think that's the reason.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:02:18 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: our process for rearch is to do</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">doctest-first development. So we have a series of pretty readable,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">but collectively not yet organized, doctests. They can be built with</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Sphinx into cross-referenced documentation, we don't have that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">automated yet, but we could, if you're a likely consumer ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:02:30 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: you can reference just fine, just that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">there you are on your own ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:02:42 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I think Chandler's capabilities make most</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">sense as part of the core system</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:02:48 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but it's not clear where, exactly</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:03:28 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>one possibility would be, since we are all</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">building "temporally organized information retrieval systems", to</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">agree upon an API there</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:03:36 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>or even share a backend for certain things</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:04:01 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but our approaches so far have been quite</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">different, with Sugar taking a very filesystem-like approach, and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Chandler taking a very e-mail-like approach</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:04:20 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I would start by just explaining the trade</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">offs we made and which was our experience</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:04:43 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we can already learn a lot by just that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:04:54 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I agree with tomeu.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:05:05 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and will know more about the feasibility of sharing code</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:05:09 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>For example, I'm quite interested in the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">performance work you've tried to do with your rearch.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:05:10 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>re: linking, sensible, but a little sad,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">bemasc. Chandler's organization approach would be enhanced by easily</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">creating an item that links to some document (or some other context,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">whatever that means). Doesn't work very well on the big 3 desktops</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">now, though, so nothing lost, just nothing gained ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:06:15 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>performance++</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:06:38 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>hmm, I should probably clarify</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:06:45 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>that there are really 3 projects floating around</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:06:49 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>in the chandler sphere</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:07:01 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>1. Chandler 1.0 codebase, legacy, works, slow</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:07:29 <hamstar><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(usable ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:07:58 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>2. first stab at rearchitecture (the svn</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">links I gave above were to that codebase) which was mostly about</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">demonstrating that a wx UI could be snappier than chandler 1.0 and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">more nicely modular</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:08:19 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>3. chandler2 codebase (also, confusingly,</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">called rearchitecture, I just realized the confusion there, sorry)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:08:29 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>which is what gbaillie and I are actively</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">working on right now</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:08:35 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we have done some perf work on all</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:08:45 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>have you found any general themes in your python</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">performance work?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:08:49 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we're focusing on the domain and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">interaction models for chandler2 right now, we don't have any ui wired</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">up</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:08:54 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we need to do quite a lot of it</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:08:59 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>and often don't know where to start :)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:09:03 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>though, 3 is mainly checking that things</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">don't go too far out the window in extreme cases (like reminders)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:09:04 <--<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>erikos has quit (Remote closed the connection)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:09:38 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>back in the day, we did a lot of perf work on 1</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:09:55 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>mainly, running slow-seeming scenarios in</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">profiler, etc.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:10:08 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gbaillie: which profiler?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:10:08 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>most of the memory work we did was looking</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">at things like leaks</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:10:18 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>oh, mostly hotshot</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:10:20 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gbaillie: what tools did you use to look for leaks?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:10:30 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>some people used valgrand iirc</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:10:43 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>i would have to go back and look</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:10:56 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gbaillie: guppy's heapy worked pretty well for us</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:11:02 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>for python leaks</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:11:05 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(i seem to remember heikkit -- not in this</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">meeting -- having done that)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:11:08 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>huh</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:11:35 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>someone else did some stuff with tools i</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">don't remember</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:11:46 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>you had to build a new python interpreter</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:11:53 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>to instrument everything</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:11:57 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>really, we didn't focus much on memory</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">footprint, raw cpu cycles performance was much more of a concern for</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">us on the spacious platforms we were targetting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:12:04 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>yeah, for valgrind you need to rebuild python</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:12:38 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I'm sorry to have to leave :(</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:13:08 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>well, it seems like there's probably room</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">for more conversation. bemasc, perhaps an action item is to schedule</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">a follow up meeting?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:13:11 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>we could re-convene @ some pt</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:13:15 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>that would be good.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:13:18 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I will join #chandler and pop up when I see a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">topic that rings something in sugar</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:13:32 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: will you please schedule another meeting?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:13:41 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>m_stone: I'd be happy to.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:13:44 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: pretty please? ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:13:47 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>nice</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:14:26 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>ok... I think that's it.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:14:27 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: we should talk more about storage</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">APIs. One of the things we've left wide open in rearch is how we'll</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">do persistence, I think it's plausible we could work together there</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:14:38 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(not now, just noting items for future meeting ;)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:14:41 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: that's interesting.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:14:58 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>bemasc: I</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:15:11 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>JeffreyH: perhaps. one of the people who has</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">thought most about this is in Peru for the week, but will be back</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">afterward.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:15:13 <tomeu><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>yup, we have had lots of discussions about that</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:15:20 <JeffreyH><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I'll take an action item of putting most</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">recent documentation up somewhere globally readable</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:15:24 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>are there any online docs about storage?</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:15:29 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span><a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Olpcfs">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Olpcfs</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:15:42 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>this is one class of idea we have considered.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:15:53 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>great, thanks</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:15:57 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Scott wrote the paper and then wrote up a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">demo implementation which you can try out if you want.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:16:02 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gbaillie:</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Low-level_Activity_API#Datastore">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Low-level_Activity_API#Datastore</a></div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:16:09 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I think that's the current state of things.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:16:31 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>but the social circumstances which created</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">it are rather complex and, post implementation, Scott has come to the</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">conclusion that he wouldn't ship it.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:16:46 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(as I understand it), primarily because he</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">thinks its inadequately modular.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:17:01 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>gbaillie: and</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; "><a href="http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Journal_reloaded">http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Journal_reloaded</a> is the most recent proposal</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:17:03 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>anyway, read that and you'll be well</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">prepared to chat with us at our next meeting.</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:17:17 <gbaillie><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>i'll do that, and thanks again</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:17:19 <m_stone><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(similarly, send us any pages you'd like us to read)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:17:37 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>also, I'll try and get a pointer to a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">working/useful livecd to try out for the next meeting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:17:42 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>I'll write up a wiki page to brainstorm</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">questions for next meeting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:18:06 <cjb><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>(I just tried out the debian one, it's missing a</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">lot of stuff.)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:18:10 <--<span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>Hyakugei (i=<a href="mailto:user@204-225-123-136.xdsl.convoke.net">user@204-225-123-136.xdsl.convoke.net</a>)</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">has left #sugar-meeting</div><div style="margin-top: 0px; margin-right: 0px; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-left: 0px; ">Oct 20 21:18:30 <bemasc><span class="Apple-tab-span" style="white-space:pre"> </span>ok.... Adjourned!</div><div><br></div></div><div><br></div></div></body></html>