<div dir="ltr">On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 11:03 PM, Samuel Greenfeld <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:samuel@greenfeld.org" target="_blank">samuel@greenfeld.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><div class="gmail_extra"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div><div><div><div><div>much
of the hope behind the XO-1, Sugar, and Schoolserver was that everyone
would rally around them as the superior solution. Millions of XOs would
be sold, and everyone would develop Sugar applications.<br><br></div>In practice, this never happened.<br></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr"><div><div><div>The question I am raising is if micro-deployments are enough.<br></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Very
fair questions all, including Tony's shy-but-globally-informed responses below, after having trudged thru almost every possible OLPC country known to man+woman+child!<br><br>Similar fundamental=difficult questions: are mega-deployments enough? Are medium-sized
deployments enough? Is the OLPC vision of "deployment" (a military idea
synonymous with top-down) even compatible/practical as an approach to
open-sourcing education, or any other parts of democracy for that matter? What more relevant
approaches can advance+open intentionally conservationist (don't say
conservative ;) educational models?<br><br></div></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 11:50 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:tkkang@nurturingasia.com" target="_blank">tkkang@nurturingasia.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">Yes .... we had all the discussion in 2013. Here is one (see 2:50 if you are impatient)<br>
<br>
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kvIzitQPTo" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kvIzitQPTo</a><br>
<br>
T.K. Kang<br>
olpc 2.015<br>
<div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5"><br>
>-----Original Message-----<br>
>From: Tony Anderson [mailto:<a href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net">tony_anderson@usa.net</a>]<br>
>Sent: Wednesday, March 11, 2015 11:38 AM<br>
>To: <a href="mailto:xsce-devel@googlegroups.com">xsce-devel@googlegroups.com</a><br>
>Subject: Re: [XSCE] Re: XS(CE) integration with other environments?<br>
><br>
>Hi, Samuel<br>
><br>
>You seem to be making the point that Christophe Derndorfer made so<br>
>eloquently at the Malaysia summit. We are not going to succeed without<br>
>some 'wins' at major deployments.<br>
><br>
>Unfortunately, we don't have a product. The current laptop in olpc is<br>
>the XO-4 which goes for a price 50% above the original XO-1. One<br>
>Education in Australia is supposed to be preparing a follow-on which<br>
>could be priced slightly below the XO-4. However, it is not clear<br>
>whether this system will support the current Sugar builds or only a<br>
>dual-boot Android system. There is no consensus on a platform as an<br>
>alternative offering (Classmate?). The current Sugar offering is not<br>
>viable on an Android device at present.<br>
><br>
>Secondly, in that environment we are competing with major corporations<br>
>who have relatively unlimited resources. My view is that we can only win<br>
>by demonstrating success in the wild and our base in open source and<br>
>open educational resources which means the school system does not have<br>
>to pay ongoing software fees. It is estimated that in the US, schools<br>
>spend 50% of their computer budget on fees for software and educational<br>
>materials. I don't see us competing with any of the major players in<br>
>this market (or even being invited to make a bid).<br>
><br>
>Tony<br>
><br>
><br>
><br>
>On 03/11/2015 11:03 AM, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:<br>
>> No, you can't quite blame Martin for this one.<br>
>><br>
>> I won't go into the various people who've said it, but much of the<br>
>> hope behind the XO-1, Sugar, and Schoolserver was that everyone would<br>
>> rally around them as the superior solution. Millions of XOs would be<br>
>> sold, and everyone would develop Sugar applications.<br>
>><br>
>> In practice, this never happened.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> XSCE in many ways is an improvement from the original schoolserver.<br>
>> But from what I have seen it still seems somewhat oriented towards<br>
>> micro-deployments. Or at least everyone loves talking about their<br>
>> micro-deployments.<br>
>><br>
>> The question I am raising is if micro-deployments are enough.<br>
>><br>
>> A newspaper article locally republished here contained the point that<br>
>> "Organizations don’t die because they provide no value; they die<br>
>> because they fail to provide enough value to enough people." And<br>
>> although the original source appears to be religious[*], if you<br>
>> substitute "Judaism" with "Sugar" and "Synagogues" with "Sugar Labs"<br>
>> much of the article still is true.<br>
>><br>
>> How do we get enough value into future versions of XSCE and Sugar?<br>
>> How do we convince deployments that they are worth using, and<br>
>> volunteers that they are not wasting their time?<br>
>><br>
>> As much as technical details may be fun to argue about, I think we<br>
>> need to determine the more fundamental answers. This is more of an<br>
>> IAEP discussion though than anything.<br>
>><br>
>> [*]<br>
>> <a href="http://www.jta.org/2015/02/08/news-opinion/opinion/op-ed-are-voluntary-dues-enough-to-get-people-to-join-synagogues" target="_blank">http://www.jta.org/2015/02/08/news-opinion/opinion/op-ed-are-voluntary-dues-enough-to-get-people-to-join-synagogues</a><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 8:42 PM, Tony Anderson <<a href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net">tony_anderson@usa.net</a><br>
</div></div><div class="HOEnZb"><div class="h5">>> <mailto:<a href="mailto:tony_anderson@usa.net">tony_anderson@usa.net</a>>> wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> Hi,<br>
>><br>
>> I can't speak to XSCE, but I have never understood the problems<br>
>> you cite. I think, try to be diplomatic, that there is problem of<br>
>> terminology. When the SLOBS talk about negotiating privatesly with<br>
>> a deployment, they apparently mean a national initiative (Uruguay,<br>
>> Peru, Rwanda, Australia, Paraguay). I think there are many of us<br>
>> who work with what is affectionately known as micro-deployements<br>
>> or boutique deployments.<br>
>><br>
>> In the latter context, I have never understood this problem. The<br>
>> Martin Langhoff model you describe fits the needs perfectly. Even<br>
>> if the school has a policy not to provide DHCP or whatever, the<br>
>> solution is to connect the schoolserver to that network as the WAN<br>
>> (and the WAN sees it as a device.). So far I have not run into a<br>
>> 'micro-deployment' where there is enough networking around to make<br>
>> that even a question. Naturally, it seems clear that if a<br>
>> deployment does not like the design of the schoolserver, they are<br>
>> free to adapt it to their needs or not use it. I don't see that we<br>
>> have any obligation to adapt to those needs (that was the idea, I<br>
>> thought, of Activity Central - to provide a way for deployments to<br>
>> obtain technical resources to adapt the community products to<br>
>> their needs).<br>
>><br>
>> My own project is to provide a 1TB hard drive with all of the<br>
>> relevant software and content to set up a complete deployment (at<br>
>> one school). It is assumed that this deployment does not have<br>
>> regular access to the internet and needs to access that content<br>
>> from the school server. The deployment model is exactly as you<br>
>> describe.<br>
>> WIthin that constraint, the goal is to allow the deployment to<br>
>> prepare routers, XOs, and the schoolserver with support from<br>
>> someone familiar with computers but not necessarily with the<br>
>> command line. Some command line use is essential (I haven't found<br>
>> a way around) and the instructions assume that the installation is<br>
>> done from an XO (assuming a deployment has those). The devil is in<br>
>> the details, and these seem as endless as a visit to Hell.<br>
>><br>
>> Tony<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> On 03/11/2015 03:02 AM, Samuel Greenfeld wrote:<br>
>><br>
>> You are taking my remarks a bit out of context, although it is<br>
>> hard for me to tiptoe around explaining things while trying<br>
>> not to insult anyone.<br>
>><br>
>> >From the schoolserver perspective, schoolservers as<br>
>> originally implemented were meant to be an all-in-one system.<br>
>> They provide DHCP for the laptops, act as the Internet<br>
>> gateway, provide anti-theft & backup services, etc.<br>
>><br>
>> Sugar & XOs have hardcoded logic expecting the schoolserver to<br>
>> be called "schoolserver". Schoolservers are also expected to<br>
>> have certain hardcoded IP addresses in case an XO runs into<br>
>> anti-theft problems, etc.<br>
>><br>
>> But in larger networks/school districts, I have seen<br>
>> schoolservers installed into networks where they are not<br>
>> allowed to control DHCP. They often were not the Internet<br>
>> gateway, and local policies might not allow them to be called<br>
>> "schoolserver". Occasionally the schoolserver isn't even in<br>
>> the same building as the XOs, and may be on a completely<br>
>> different subnet.<br>
>><br>
>> This is a whole concept I once called "Sugar for the<br>
>> Enterprise {school district}" but I don't know if that is<br>
>> worth pursuing at this time.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>> XSCE is interesting in that it supports things like<br>
>> Internet-in-a-box which are not XO specific. And from what<br>
>> I've seen, the XSCE community may in some ways be more active<br>
>> than the Sugar community.<br>
>><br>
>> But it is unclear to me what features the XSCE community is<br>
>> implementing to support deployments other than those they are<br>
>> directly involved with, or what the feedback loop is there.<br>
>><br>
>><br>
>><br>
><br>
><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr">Unsung Heroes of OLPC, interviewed live @ <a href="http://unleashkids.org" target="_blank">http://unleashkids.org</a> !</div></div>
</div></div>
</blockquote></div></div></div>