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    la "crisis", Flavio, es que hay gente cansada que una lista dedicada
    a educación <=> ceibalitas no mantiene su enfoque.<br>
    <br>
    Concuerdo contigo 100% que necesitamos un ámbito para la
    comunicación y expresión humana que no tiene que ver con las
    ceibalitas poco más que ambas son parte del Universo. El tema es que
    hay gente que preferiría que Sur se enfoque, bueno, a ser algo maś
    relacionado con el tema.  <br>
    <br>
    ¿cómo resolvemos? no es justo obligar a la gente a que tenga
    paciencia, si podemos mejorar la cosa, y darle un lugar apropiado a
    cada uno, ¿eh?<br>
    <br>
    el tema tolerancia no es solo de aceptar la diversidad, sino también
    de dar lugar a espacios en que dicha diversidad pueda expresarse en
    su cabalidad. <br>
    <br>
    ¿te parece?<br>
    <br>
    On 04/09/2012 03:57 PM, Flavio Danesse wrote:
    <blockquote
cite="mid:CACfnHddO16LgZRTumuoRz7WxbB-SR8KJ9e2vueNyV_MoHBk4wQ@mail.gmail.com"
      type="cite">Yo no estoy de acuerdo con "los Poderes".
      <div><br>
      </div>
      <div>Más allá de los temas que se traten en la lista, (que no veo
        porque haya que limitarlos), me parece sumamente importante
        mantenerla como una forma de comunicación y expresión humana.
        Somos gente, pensamos, sentimos y opinamos, no veo que queda si
        le sacamos eso, además la lista a funcionado así desde siempre,
        no veo cual es la "crisis".</div>
      <div><br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <br>
        <div class="gmail_quote">El 9 de abril de 2012 17:15, Gonzalo
          Odiard <span dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:gonzalo@laptop.org">gonzalo@laptop.org</a>></span>
          escribió:<br>
          <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt
            0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
            padding-left: 1ex;">
            Concuerdo, la idea no es censurar.
            <div>Volviendo a lo que plantea Daniel, olpc-sur es muy
              importante para comunicar a los desarrolladores y a los
              docentes.</div>
            <div>Me consta que desarrolladores que no escriben en
              español, estan subscriptos a la lista para enterarse de
              los comentarios de los docentes.</div>
            <div>Para mi es una de las mejores listas con las que
              contamos, con una base amplia con los pies en la tierra.</div>
            <div class="HOEnZb">
              <div class="h5">
                <div><br>
                </div>
                <div>Gonzalo</div>
                <div><br>
                  <div class="gmail_quote">2012/4/9 Yamandu Ploskonka <span
                      dir="ltr"><<a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:yamaplos@gmail.com" target="_blank">yamaplos@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
                    <blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt
                      0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204,
                      204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
                      <div bgcolor="#ffffff" text="#000000"> Hmm, Sur es
                        fruto de gente que hemos vivido dictaduras...
                        Semos hipersensibles a cualquier tipo de censura
                        (aunque en casos extremos y extrictamente con
                        motivos pedagógicos más de uno ha recibido un
                        mensaje personal de este servidor)<br>
                        <br>
                        me estoy comenzando a dar cuenta que el quid (no
                        *k*id, por favor) del asunto está tal vez en eso
                        que Sur es*para temas conectados* con las
                        ceibalitas.  Luego, si un tema dado, por muy
                        maravilloso que sea, *NO* justifica una
                        razonablemente obvia conexión, con mucho cariño
                        cualquier listero (por favor, los admines no
                        somós mamá o papá) por favor manda un amable
                        email personal al descuidado, recordándole que
                        Sur tiene esto como tema.<br>
                        <br>
                        Si bien eso resuelve a Sur, no resuelve que
                        *existe* temas de interés que tal vez merece un
                        ámbito para que se expresen. XO <=>
                        educación no es la meta, sino XO + educación
                        => comunidad, ciudadanía, etc.  Y tal vez
                        determinado tema *educativo* merece discusión,
                        incluso político etc.<br>
                        <br>
                        Otra: personalmente no quiero que Sur pierda
                        jamás lo de "comunidad" - con debido respeto,
                        hay temas directamente relevantes a los listeros
                        que a titulo excepcional *son* parte, ya que
                        somos parte.  Es matiz, pero hemos celebrado
                        nacimientos y reconocimientos, sufrido penas
                        juntos, y en mi humilde opinión ello no debe
                        perderse.<br>
                        <br>
                        Otrosí, *si* conseguimos el Foro, eso resuelve
                        este problema de los OT: los "fuera de tema"
                        tienen su bloque, para los aficionados, y allí
                        orientamos a quien se confunde
                        <div>
                          <div><br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            <br>
                            On 04/09/2012 02:58 PM, Alan Jhonn Aguiar
                            Schwyn wrote:
                            <blockquote type="cite">
                              <div dir="ltr">
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                pero si el problema son esos tópicos..
                                <div><br>
                                </div>
                                <div>bloqueando el origen se soluciona,
                                  no?
                                  <div><br>
                                    <div>
                                      <hr>Date: Mon, 9 Apr 2012 16:55:05
                                      -0300<br>
                                      From: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:gonzalo@laptop.org"
                                        target="_blank">gonzalo@laptop.org</a><br>
                                      To: <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org"
                                        target="_blank">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
                                      Subject: Re: [Sur] Nueva lista,
                                      Sur-Opinion, Sur-Comun ?<br>
                                      <br>
                                      Esta nueva lista es una buena
                                      candidata para contener:
                                      <div><br>
                                      </div>
                                      <div>* Declaraciones de Natalia
                                        Oreiro (que es muy linda, pero
                                        no viene al caso) o jugadores de
                                        futbol varios,</div>
                                      <div>directores técnicos y de
                                        orquesta.</div>
                                      <div>* Recetas de cocina, aunque
                                        sean con productos uruguayos y
                                        salgan en el New York Times</div>
                                      <div>* Discursos de presidentes de
                                        varios paises...</div>
                                      <div>* Mas notas de Exitosos
                                        Jóvenes Latinoamericanos que
                                        Triunfan en el Exterior...</div>
                                      <div>* Que hacer con gruas y
                                        colectivos</div>
                                      <div>etc</div>
                                      <div><br>
                                        Gonzalo<br>
                                        <br>
                                        <div>2012/4/9 Yamandu Ploskonka
                                          <span dir="ltr"><<a
                                              moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:yamaplos@gmail.com"
                                              target="_blank">yamaplos@gmail.com</a>></span><br>
                                          <blockquote
                                            style="border-left: 1px
                                            solid rgb(204, 204, 204);
                                            padding-left: 1ex;">
                                            <div> se me chispió, perdón<br>
                                              debía ser ->   
                                              discutir los temas
                                              educativos *conectados*
                                              con las XO<br>
                                              <br>
                                              también pido disculpas por
                                              no formar de manera más
                                              positiva la futura lista
                                              en mi respuesta a Gonzalo.
                                              La idea es que sea algo
                                              positivo, constructivo, no
                                              un ámbito de trolls, sino
                                              un lugar para discutir
                                              temas de gran interés,
                                              educativos ante todo sin
                                              duda, pero que no está
                                              *directamente* conectados
                                              con las ceibalitas
                                              <div>
                                                <div><br>
                                                  <br>
                                                  On 04/09/2012 02:40
                                                  PM, Yamandu Ploskonka
                                                  wrote:
                                                  <blockquote> ahem, se
                                                    supone que OLPC
                                                    <=> Educación
                                                    <br>
                                                    el equivalente a Sur
                                                    en inglés se llama
                                                    IAEP -> It's an
                                                    Education Project
                                                    (not a laptop
                                                    project) (es un
                                                    proyecto educativo
                                                    (no un  proyecto de
                                                    laptops))<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    Ya existe listas
                                                    para temas
                                                    estrictamente de
                                                    desarrollo de
                                                    software,
                                                    esencialmente
                                                    manejadas por
                                                    Sugarlabs que yo
                                                    sepa <br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    La idea de Sur ha
                                                    sido de servir
                                                    *precisamente* para
                                                    discutir los temas
                                                    educativos
                                                    *conectados* con lo
                                                    educativo (lo
                                                    educativo puramente
                                                    por sí, sin
                                                    conección con las
                                                    "ceibalitas", sería
                                                    excelente candidato
                                                    para discusiones
                                                    constructivas en la
                                                    otra lista, que no
                                                    se crea es destinada
                                                    a ser un basurero,
                                                    sino un sitio de
                                                    discusión
                                                    constructiva y
                                                    colaborativa en
                                                    temas que NO
                                                    conciernen las
                                                    ceibalitas<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    gracias por las
                                                    preguntas, así nos
                                                    organizamos!<br>
                                                    <br>
                                                    On 04/09/2012 02:23
                                                    PM, Daniel Francis
                                                    wrote:
                                                    <blockquote>Bueno,
                                                      estoy de acuerdo
                                                      que intentar
                                                      abarcar educación
                                                      y tecnología en
                                                      una misma lista,
                                                      no es sencillo.<br>
                                                      Hace unos meses
                                                      leí un hilo en
                                                      otra lista sobre
                                                      el significado de
                                                      Off-Topic, donde
                                                      se llegó a la
                                                      conclusión de que
                                                      enviar "Off-topic:
                                                      Receta de cocina"
                                                      en una lista de
                                                      informática está
                                                      totalmente fuera
                                                      de lugar, los
                                                      temas Off-topic,
                                                      deben tener una
                                                      mínima relación
                                                      con los objetivos
                                                      de una lista.<br>
                                                      Yo propongo usar
                                                      una lista
                                                      Sur-Educacion para
                                                      la mayoría de los
                                                      temas educativos
                                                      actualmente
                                                      Off-topic y una
                                                      Sur-Sugar o
                                                      Sur-Informatica
                                                      para la
                                                      discuciones sobre
                                                      desarrollo e
                                                      implementación de
                                                      nuevos recursos
                                                      educativos a
                                                      través de las XO.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      Saludos,<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      Santiago Daniel
                                                      Francis<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      Administración de
                                                      Olpc-Sur<br>
                                                      <a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur" target="_blank">lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a><br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      Sugar Labs
                                                      Activities -
                                                      Colaborador<br>
                                                      <a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://activities.sugarlabs.org/" target="_blank">activities.sugarlabs.org</a><br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      PD: Leí un mensaje
                                                      de Gonzalo Odiard,
                                                      donde pregunta
                                                      acerca de "Los
                                                      poderes", si no me
                                                      equivoco, se
                                                      refiere a quienes
                                                      administran <a
                                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.laptop.org" target="_blank">lists.laptop.org</a>, no
                                                      sobre la lista de
                                                      Sur.<br>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <div>El 9 de abril
                                                        de 2012 16:05,
                                                        Yamandu
                                                        Ploskonka <span
                                                          dir="ltr"><<a
moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:yamaplos@gmail.com" target="_blank">yamaplos@gmail.com</a>></span>
                                                        escribió:<br>
                                                        <blockquote
                                                          style="padding-left:
                                                          1ex;"> Muy
                                                          estimados,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          dado lo
                                                          problemático
                                                          de OT y demás,
                                                          los admines
                                                          estamos
                                                          consultando a
                                                          los Poderes
                                                          para ver que
                                                          nos dejen
                                                          tener una
                                                          lista cuya
                                                          función es
                                                          permitir armar
                                                          comunidad de
                                                          manera más
                                                          amplia, al
                                                          mismo tiempo
                                                          conservando y
                                                          empoderando
                                                          Sur misma para
                                                          que sea
                                                          realmente "en
                                                          tema"<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Con mucha pena
                                                          he visto gente
                                                          apartarse de
                                                          Sur por esto
                                                          de discusiones
                                                          filosófico-políticas-ideológicas-religiosas

                                                          (no hubo
                                                          problema con
                                                          fútbol, sólo
                                                          eso faltaría)
                                                          (sí, es cierto
                                                          que algunos ya
                                                          nos
                                                          previnieron
                                                          hace meses, y
                                                          dejamos
                                                          arrastrar el
                                                          problema con
                                                          eso de la "no
                                                          censura"). Lo
                                                          peor es gente
                                                          con
                                                          trayectoria
                                                          que se ha
                                                          estado
                                                          borrando estos
                                                          días, y eso no
                                                          puede ser, ¿no
                                                          les parece?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          No creo que
                                                          esto
                                                          signifique
                                                          división, sino
                                                          multiplicación
                                                          - quien quiere
                                                          la discusión
                                                          sin tema
                                                          tendrá un
                                                          ambiente apto,
                                                          quien no
                                                          quiere meterse
                                                          en lo técnico
                                                          porque
                                                          degenera en
                                                          ideológico se
                                                          sentirá más
                                                          seguro y calmo
                                                          que en Sur se
                                                          re-centrará en
                                                          esto, quien
                                                          quiere ambos
                                                          pues estará en
                                                          ambos, ¿no?<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Los Poderes
                                                          quieren
                                                          evidencia que
                                                          esto es lo que
                                                          el pueblo
                                                          quiere. Bueno,
                                                          a las
                                                          barricadas,
                                                          embaderar,
                                                          etc.  De pasó
                                                          a sugerir
                                                          nombre para
                                                          tal,
                                                          ¿conservamos
                                                          "Sur" más
                                                          algo? ¿algo
                                                          totalmente
                                                          diferente? Me
                                                          parecería
                                                          "Sur-Opinion"
                                                          (sin acento
                                                          para no hacer
                                                          líos en los
                                                          servidores),
                                                          por favor,
                                                          sugerencias
                                                          bienvenidas.<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Otrosí,
                                                          también están
                                                          viendo de
                                                          implementar el
                                                          Foro que
                                                          habíamos
                                                          discutido hace
                                                          unos meses -
                                                          creo que había
                                                          buen consenso
                                                          al respecto<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          servus,<br>
                                                          <br>
                                                          Yamandú<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                                          Lista olpc-Sur<br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org" target="_blank">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
                                                          <a
                                                          moz-do-not-send="true"
href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a><br>
                                                        </blockquote>
                                                      </div>
                                                      <br>
                                                      <br clear="all">
                                                      <br>
                                                      <pre><fieldset></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Lista olpc-Sur
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org" target="_blank">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a>
</pre>
                                                    </blockquote>
                                                  </blockquote>
                                                </div>
                                              </div>
                                            </div>
                                            <br>
_______________________________________________<br>
                                            Lista olpc-Sur<br>
                                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org"
                                              target="_blank">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
                                            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                              href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur"
                                              target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a><br>
                                            <br>
                                          </blockquote>
                                        </div>
                                        <br>
                                      </div>
                                      <br>
                                      _______________________________________________

                                      Lista olpc-Sur <a
                                        moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org"
                                        target="_blank">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a>
                                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                                        href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur"
                                        target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a></div>
                                  </div>
                                </div>
                              </div>
                              <pre><fieldset></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Lista olpc-Sur
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org" target="_blank">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a>
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a>
</pre>
                            </blockquote>
                          </div>
                        </div>
                      </div>
                      <br>
                      _______________________________________________<br>
                      Lista olpc-Sur<br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org"
                        target="_blank">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
                      <a moz-do-not-send="true"
                        href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur"
                        target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a><br>
                      <br>
                    </blockquote>
                  </div>
                  <br>
                </div>
              </div>
            </div>
            <br>
            _______________________________________________<br>
            Lista olpc-Sur<br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
            <a moz-do-not-send="true"
              href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur"
              target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a><br>
            <br>
          </blockquote>
        </div>
        <br>
      </div>
      <pre wrap="">
<fieldset class="mimeAttachmentHeader"></fieldset>
_______________________________________________
Lista olpc-Sur
<a class="moz-txt-link-abbreviated" href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a>
<a class="moz-txt-link-freetext" href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a>
</pre>
    </blockquote>
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