<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF1314">La versión en Español sigue al texto original en Inglés</font></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div>Congratulations Bernie on taking this first step!</span></font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">It is important and long overdue.<br></span></font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">I fully agree with your basic thoughts:</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">=============================</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">You say, among other things:</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">"I thought it would be a a good starting point for a good discussion about what could be improved in *our* camp.</span></font></div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br>To begin with, I've always thought that there isn't nearly enough self-criticism in both Sugar Labs and OLPC."</span></font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">=============================</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">I recently read an article on the very popular, subject of the torrent of information coming our way and confusing us.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">The author said many of us enjoy forums and mailing lists as a solution to reduce the volume of information.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Let´s spend time in the forums and lists we subscribe to and we will find most of the material is of interest to us.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">The author pointed out however a danger I never thought about.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">We suscribe to a list or forum because after reading the messages posted in them, we find out we like either the content or the authors because we generally agree with what they say.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">On the other hand, without much thought, we just discontinue our subscription if we come to realize the forum is not for us.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">The danger is we have thus isolated ourselves in the middle of the internet the most open media ever created.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">It is my humble opinion the Sugar-related lists should open up to everyone and try to help and give guidance specially to those who need it most who are the new ones in the lists.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Among the new ones I would give special attention to those who are not computer geniuses, but who are basic players in the whole team.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">This change could be of enormous help to those already in the lists who enjoy talking to each other and frequently get upset with comments from outsiders.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">It seems to me the computer geniuses in the lists have forgotten they would be completely worthless if no one in the world used the programs and systems they produce.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">A good way of starting the year would be to review the whole field, remove the blinders on the sides of our eyes and look at everyone everywhere.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Anyone planning to produce a product or service be it a loaf of bread, a computer program, a gun, or anything else, should at some point think who is going to use that product or service and what do they want to use it for.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">As they make progress, they should never lose sight of these end users and how they want to use the product or service.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Listen to teachers, students, relatives in charge of those students, volunteers, everyone.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Do not chase them away as ignorants because they do not understand your technical language.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">The most intelligent and educated individuals have the obligation of speaking in a language comprehensible to the ones they want to reach.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">With our best wishes to you, Bernie and to all!</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Carlos Rabassa</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Volunteer</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Plan Ceibal</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Montevideo, Uruguay</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><font class="Apple-style-span" color="#FF1314">Versión en Español:</font></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div>Bernie, felicitaciones por dar este primer paso!</span></font></span></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: medium; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "></span></font></span><div style="font-size: medium; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div style="font-size: medium; "><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Es importante y debía haberse dado hace mucho tiempo.</span></font></div><div style="font-size: medium; "><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Estoy completamente de acuerdo con tus ideas básicas:</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">=============================</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;">Dices, entre otras cosas</span></font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">:</span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">"Pensé [el artículo que adjunto] sería un buen punto de arranque para una buena discusión sobre lo que podría mejorarse en *nuestro* grupo.</span></font></div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br>Para comenzar, siempre pensé que, ni en Sugar Labs ni en OLPC, hay algo que siquiera se acerque a suficiente auto-crítica."</span></font><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">=============================</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Recientemente leí un artículo, sobre el tema muy popular del torrente de información que nos llega y confunde.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">El autor decía que muchos de nosotros disfrutamos participando en foros y listas de correos como solución para reducir el volumen de información.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Pasamos tiempo en los foros y listas a que nos suscribimos y encontramos que la mayor parte del material nos interesa.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">El autor señalaba sin embargo, un peligro en el que yo nunca había pensado.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Nos suscribimos a una lista o a un foro porque después de leer los mensajes publicados, descubrimos que nos gusta ya sea el contenido o los autores porque generalmente estamos de acuerdo con lo que dicen</span></font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">.</span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Por otra parte, sin pensarlo mucho, simplemente cancelamos nuestra suscripción si llegamos a la conclusión de que el foro no es para nosotros.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">El peligro es que nos hemos aislado, nosotros mismos, en medio de internet, el medio más abierto jamás creado.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Mi humilde opinión es que las listas relacionadas con Sugar deberían abrirse a todos y tratar de ayudar y guiar específicamente a aquellos que necesitan más ayuda, los "nuevos" en las listas.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Entre los "nuevos" habría que prestar atención especial a aquellos que no son genios de la informática, pero que son jugadores básicos en el cuadro total.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Este cambio sería de enorme ayuda a aquellos que ya participan en las listas disfrutando de hablar entre ellos y que frecuentemente se molestan con comentarios de los de afuera</span></font><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">.</span></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Me da la impresión de que los genios de la informática en las listas, se olvidaron de que serían completamente inútiles si nadie en el mundo usara los programas y sistemas que ellos crean.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Una buena manera de comenzar el año nuevo sería mirar el panorama completo, removiéndonos las anteojeras a los costados de nuestros ojos, y mirar a todos en todo el mundo.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Cualquiera que planee producir un producto o servicio, sea panes, programas de computadoras, armas o cualquier cosa, debería en algún punto pensar quién usará ese producto o servicio y para qué desea usarlo.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">A medida que progresan, nunca deberán perder de vista ni a estos usuarios finales ni para qué desean usar estos productos y servicios.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Escuchen a los maestros, estudiantes, familiares a cargo de los estudiantes, voluntarios, a todos.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">No los corran por ignorantes porque no entienden el idioma técnico de ustedes.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Los individuos más inteligentes y preparados tienen la obligación de hablar con un lenguaje comprensible por parte de los que desean alcanzar.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Con nuestros mejores deseos para tí, Bernie y para todos.</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; "><br></span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Carlos Rabassa</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Voluntario</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Plan Ceibal</span></font></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px; ">Montevideo, Uruguay</span></font></div></div></span></font><br></div><div><font class="Apple-style-span" size="5"><span class="Apple-style-span" style="font-size: 18px;"><br></span></font></div><div><br></div><div><div><br></div><div><br><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br><div><div>On Jan 5, 2011, at 5:46 AM, Bernie Innocenti wrote:</div><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"><blockquote type="cite"><div>Here's a very critical article on MeeGo:<br><br> <a href="http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7929/">http://www.linux-mag.com/id/7929/</a><br><br>So, what does it have to do with us? Well, while MeeGo is a very<br>different type of project, some of the observations of the article would<br>also apply to our community. I thought it would be a a good starting<br>point for a good discussion about what could be improved in *our* camp.<br><br>To begin with, I've always thought that there isn't nearly enough<br>self-criticism in both Sugar Labs and OLPC. Exposing problems is a<br>necessary step towards fixing them, but we're often reluctant to do even<br>this first step, especially in public forums. In this regard, MeeGo is<br>lucky to have someone taking the time to point out some of the mistakes<br>that are making this project fail miserably in spite of huge amounts of<br>corporate funding.<br><br>What do *you* think are the worst Sugar community woes?<br>What could we do to improve the situation throughout 2011?<br><br>(Note, there are two separate questions above. Trying to answer also the<br>latter makes the difference between a cheap rant and truly constructive<br>criticism... but I guess even the cheap rants are better than complete<br>silence).<br><br>-- <br> // Bernie Innocenti - <a href="http://codewiz.org/">http://codewiz.org/</a><br> \X/ Sugar Labs - <a href="http://sugarlabs.org/">http://sugarlabs.org/</a><br><br>_______________________________________________<br>IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)<br><a href="mailto:IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org">IAEP@lists.sugarlabs.org</a><br>http://lists.sugarlabs.org/listinfo/iaep<br></div></blockquote></div><br></div></div></div></div></body></html>