<div dir="ltr">Daniel, yo estoy de acuerdo con Daniel Bender, sobre todo en el punto de la libertad de oportunidades. <div><br></div><div>Entregarles Windows en las XO o cualquier otra herramienta privativa está condicionando el futuro de estos niños, de sus comunidades y del pais en el que luego se radiquen. </div>
<div><br></div><div>Es importante poder ver que un niño que usa Windows por toda su infancia solo va a saber usar Windows. Y que hay cuando el quiera valerse por si mismo, ¿debe de pagar una licencia a Microsoft para hacer su trabajo?</div>
<div><br></div><div>Es bastante claro desde mi punto de vista, y sería una atrocidad entregar las XO con windows. </div><div><br></div><div>Marcel</div><div><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 6:06 PM, <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:olpc-sur-request@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur-request@lists.laptop.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">Send olpc-Sur mailing list submissions to<br>
<a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
<br>
To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<br>
<a href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a><br>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<br>
<a href="mailto:olpc-sur-request@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur-request@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
<br>
You can reach the person managing the list at<br>
<a href="mailto:olpc-sur-owner@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur-owner@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
<br>
When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<br>
than "Re: Contents of olpc-Sur digest..."<br>
<br>
<br>
Asuntos del día:<br>
<br>
1. Re: [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru (Daniel Ajoy)<br>
2. Re: [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru (Walter Bender)<br>
3. Re: Pagina de Etoys se renueva (luis ACEVEDO)<br>
4. Re: [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru (Daniel Ajoy)<br>
5. Re: [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru<br>
(rosamel norma ramirez mendez)<br>
6. Re: [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru (Walter Bender)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:11:27 -0500<br>
From: "Daniel Ajoy" <<a href="mailto:da.ajoy@gmail.com">da.ajoy@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Sur] [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru<br>
To: "OLPC en castellano para usuarios, docentes, voluntarios y<br>
administradores" <<a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a>>, OLPC_peru<br>
<<a href="mailto:peru@lists.laptop.org">peru@lists.laptop.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <op.uhi5xdtn0gup8g@daniel-pc><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15<br>
<br>
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:06:43 -0500, Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> You can install both Java and Adobe Flash on Linux systems as well as<br>
> Windows systems, so it is a misleading to argue that is a reason to<br>
> switch to Windows. What would be a helpful exercise would be to<br>
> itemize those Windows programs that are missing from the Linux<br>
> repertoire that are essential to learning. Perhaps we can work on FOSS<br>
> ports so that we can "eat our cake and have it too."<br>
<br>
En la practica casi no importa qué se *podría* instalar en las laptops sino qué *viene* instalado en las laptops.<br>
<br>
La otra cuestión es: ¿necesitan los maestros YouTube?<br>
Mi respuesta es: no sé.<br>
<br>
Sólo sé que es una de las pocas cosas que he leido que piden.<br>
<br>
Creo que no estoy equivocado al resumir que el uso que se les da a las laptops es:<br>
<br>
* Los niños navegan y descargan cosas.<br>
* Los maestros piden a los niños hacer actividades con Write y Paint.<br>
<br>
(Me gustaría que Logo pudiese cambiar esta situación un poco ya que varios maestros fueron entrenados en el uso de Logo en América Latina, quizá ellos podrían ayudar a resucitar algo de esa cultura)<br>
<br>
===========<br>
<br>
In practice it doesn't matter much what *could* be installed in the laptops, but what *comes* preinstalled with the laptops.<br>
<br>
The other issue is: do teachers need YouTube?<br>
<br>
My answer is: I don't know.<br>
<br>
I just know that that is one of the few things they have asked for.<br>
<br>
I don't think I'm mistaken it summarizing the use of the laptops in this way:<br>
<br>
* children surf and download<br>
* Teachers ask students to work with Write and Paint.<br>
<br>
(I wish Logo could change this situation a bit because a few teachers were trained in using Logos in Latinamerica, so they could help resurrect some of that culture)<br>
===========<br>
<br>
<br>
> Regarding Logo, there is a great Logo environment being developed by<br>
> Brian Harvey for Sugar.<br>
<br>
That would indeed be a great addition.<br>
<br>
Daniel<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 2<br>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 12:19:34 -0400<br>
From: "Walter Bender" <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Sur] [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru<br>
To: "OLPC en castellano para usuarios, docentes, voluntarios y<br>
administradores" <<a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a>><br>
Cc: OLPC_peru <<a href="mailto:peru@lists.laptop.org">peru@lists.laptop.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:fd535e260809150919q383ec370jaff4bbea5766c127@mail.gmail.com">fd535e260809150919q383ec370jaff4bbea5766c127@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<br>
<br>
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 12:11 PM, Daniel Ajoy <<a href="mailto:da.ajoy@gmail.com">da.ajoy@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:06:43 -0500, Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> You can install both Java and Adobe Flash on Linux systems as well as<br>
>> Windows systems, so it is a misleading to argue that is a reason to<br>
>> switch to Windows. What would be a helpful exercise would be to<br>
>> itemize those Windows programs that are missing from the Linux<br>
>> repertoire that are essential to learning. Perhaps we can work on FOSS<br>
>> ports so that we can "eat our cake and have it too."<br>
><br>
> En la practica casi no importa qué se *podría* instalar en las laptops sino qué *viene* instalado en las laptops.<br>
><br>
> La otra cuestión es: ¿necesitan los maestros YouTube?<br>
> Mi respuesta es: no sé.<br>
><br>
> Sólo sé que es una de las pocas cosas que he leido que piden.<br>
><br>
> Creo que no estoy equivocado al resumir que el uso que se les da a las laptops es:<br>
><br>
> * Los niños navegan y descargan cosas.<br>
> * Los maestros piden a los niños hacer actividades con Write y Paint.<br>
><br>
> (Me gustaría que Logo pudiese cambiar esta situación un poco ya que varios maestros fueron entrenados en el uso de Logo en América Latina, quizá ellos podrían ayudar a resucitar algo de esa cultura)<br>
><br>
> ===========<br>
><br>
> In practice it doesn't matter much what *could* be installed in the laptops, but what *comes* preinstalled with the laptops.<br>
><br>
> The other issue is: do teachers need YouTube?<br>
><br>
> My answer is: I don't know.<br>
><br>
> I just know that that is one of the few things they have asked for.<br>
><br>
> I don't think I'm mistaken it summarizing the use of the laptops in this way:<br>
><br>
> * children surf and download<br>
> * Teachers ask students to work with Write and Paint.<br>
><br>
> (I wish Logo could change this situation a bit because a few teachers were trained in using Logos in Latinamerica, so they could help resurrect some of that culture)<br>
> ===========<br>
><br>
><br>
>> Regarding Logo, there is a great Logo environment being developed by<br>
>> Brian Harvey for Sugar.<br>
><br>
> That would indeed be a great addition.<br>
><br>
> Daniel<br>
><br>
> _______________________________________________<br>
> Lista olpc-Sur<br>
> <a href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
> <a href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a><br>
><br>
<br>
I don't understand the point you are trying to make re Java and Flash.<br>
If the MoE thinks it is important, they are welcome preinstall these<br>
tools regardless of Windows vs Linux. But you raise it as an issue in<br>
a discussion about Windows on the Laptop, as if it is an advantage to<br>
running Windows.<br>
<br>
In regard to your characterization of what the children are currently<br>
doing with the laptops, I have seen much richer interactions, but more<br>
important than what they are doing now, we should be asking, what will<br>
they be doing 6 months from now? 6 years from now? How will the<br>
freedom to appropriate they learning experience and learning platform<br>
impact their long-term opportunities? How will the dependence on<br>
proprietary tools impact their ability to become entrepreneurial in<br>
their thinking and their actions?<br>
<br>
And again I ask, what are great tools that are missing in the<br>
GNU/Linux world we should be making available?<br>
<br>
regards.<br>
<br>
-walter<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 3<br>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:38:21 +0000<br>
From: luis ACEVEDO <<a href="mailto:patitoacevedo@hotmail.com">patitoacevedo@hotmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Sur] Pagina de Etoys se renueva<br>
To: "OLPC en castellano para usuarios, docentes, voluntarios y<br>
administradores" <<a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <BAY117-W443F56C5FBFDC925C497C3A7520@phx.gbl><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
<br>
Hola:<br>
<br>
Desde el reporte semanal de la lista de Sugar Labs se informa que<br>
Etoys se renueva:<br>
Kim Rose informa que el Equipo de Etoys ha lanzado<br>
esta semana el nuevo diseño de su página web <a href="http://squeakland.org/" target="_blank">http://squeakland.org/</a><br>
Hay mucho contenido y tutoriales mejorados. Esta nueva versión de Etoys<br>
esta disponible para linux, mac y windows la cual es totalmente compatible<br>
con la versión existente en los xo. (N. de T.: Los archivos generados en<br>
cualquiera de estas plataformas pueden ser ejecutados/editados en el Etoys<br>
de los OLPC.) Los proyectos de ejemplo incrustados en la página web<br>
se pueden ver on-line usando el plug-in squeakland para navegadores.<br>
En las XO, visitar los projectos de ejemplo los descargará automaticamente<br>
al diario (journal).<br>
<br>
Pato Acevedo<br>
<a href="http://www.patricioacevedo.blogspot.com" target="_blank">www.patricioacevedo.blogspot.com</a><br>
<a href="http://www.ucpn.cl" target="_blank">www.ucpn.cl</a><br>
<br>
Texto original<br>
<br>
Etoys refresh: Kim Rose reports that the Etoys team launched the<br>
redesigned website this week. There is much<br>
improved content and tutorials. It features a new Etoys release for<br>
Macintosh, Windows, and Linux which is compatible with the OLPC<br>
version now. Example projects are embedded in the website and viewable<br>
with the Squeakland browser plugin. On the XO, visiting these projects<br>
downloads them to the Journal instead.<br>
<br>
<br>
_________________________________________________________________<br>
<br>
------------ próxima parte ------------<br>
Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML...<br>
URL: <a href="http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-sur/attachments/20080915/cec2228f/attachment-0001.htm" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-sur/attachments/20080915/cec2228f/attachment-0001.htm</a><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 4<br>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:27:17 -0500<br>
From: "Daniel Ajoy" <<a href="mailto:da.ajoy@gmail.com">da.ajoy@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Sur] [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru<br>
To: "OLPC en castellano para usuarios, docentes, voluntarios y<br>
administradores" <<a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a>>, OLPC_peru<br>
<<a href="mailto:peru@lists.laptop.org">peru@lists.laptop.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <op.uhjezrnv0gup8g@daniel-pc><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-15<br>
<br>
On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:19:34 -0500, Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
<br>
> I don't understand the point you are trying to make re Java and Flash.<br>
> If the MoE thinks it is important, they are welcome preinstall these<br>
> tools regardless of Windows vs Linux. But you raise it as an issue in<br>
> a discussion about Windows on the Laptop, as if it is an advantage to<br>
> running Windows.<br>
<br>
My point is:<br>
<br>
* If teachers consider having YouTube and applets educationally valuable (In this discussion list teachers don't ask much but one of the few things that they have asked for is YouTube. I personally don't think that YouTube is very educationally valuable. )<br>
<br>
* And if the Windows laptops come ready for YouTube and applets (versus current Sugar laptops that don't come ready for YouTube and applets)<br>
<br>
then that is a plus for the Windows laptops.<br>
<br>
> And again I ask, what are great tools that are missing in the<br>
> GNU/Linux world we should be making available?<br>
<br>
I think the Linux world has great tools, even *enough* great tools.<br>
<br>
Eg. the Linux world has many spreadsheets. Are they available for the laptop?<br>
<br>
<br>
> How will the<br>
> freedom to appropriate they learning experience and learning platform<br>
> impact their long-term opportunities?<br>
<br>
I don't see how children working with windows laptops will be less free to appropriate their learning experience, except that the Sugar laptops have peer to peer chat and (some kind of) sharing out of the box.<br>
<br>
<br>
Daniel<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 5<br>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 20:03:44 +0000<br>
From: rosamel norma ramirez mendez <<a href="mailto:rosanor43@hotmail.com">rosanor43@hotmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Sur] [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru<br>
To: "OLPC en castellano para usuarios, docentes, voluntarios y<br>
administradores" <<a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a>><br>
Message-ID: <BAY102-W38C6E05E2DB7276425C55BB4520@phx.gbl><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
<br>
Siempre son molestas las generalizaciones de todo tipo, no somos todos los maestros que solo hacemos escribir y dibujar en las laptops, los habemos inetresados en usos mas profundos y en investigar en equipos conformados desde la diversidad, que se puede hacer desde los programas que trae, seria interesante relevar datos y recursos humanos antes de opinar tan ligeramente sobre "los maestros".<br>
Rosamel Ramirez> Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:11:27 -0500> To: <a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a>; <a href="mailto:peru@lists.laptop.org">peru@lists.laptop.org</a>> From: <a href="mailto:da.ajoy@gmail.com">da.ajoy@gmail.com</a>> Subject: Re: [Sur] [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru> > On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:06:43 -0500, Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> wrote:> > > You can install both Java and Adobe Flash on Linux systems as well as> > Windows systems, so it is a misleading to argue that is a reason to> > switch to Windows. What would be a helpful exercise would be to> > itemize those Windows programs that are missing from the Linux> > repertoire that are essential to learning. Perhaps we can work on FOSS> > ports so that we can "eat our cake and have it too."> > En la practica casi no importa qué se *podría* instalar en las laptops sino qué *viene* instalado en las laptops.> > La otra cuestión es: ¿necesitan los maestros YouTube?> Mi respuesta es: no sé.> > Sólo sé que es una de las pocas cosas que he leido que piden.> > Creo que no estoy equivocado al resumir que el uso que se les da a las laptops es:> > * Los niños navegan y descargan cosas.> * Los maestros piden a los niños hacer actividades con Write y Paint.> > (Me gustaría que Logo pudiese cambiar esta situación un poco ya que varios maestros fueron entrenados en el uso de Logo en América Latina, quizá ellos podrían ayudar a resucitar algo de esa cultura)> > ===========> > In practice it doesn't matter much what *could* be installed in the laptops, but what *comes* preinstalled with the laptops.> > The other issue is: do teachers need YouTube?> > My answer is: I don't know.> > I just know that that is one of the few things they have asked for.> > I don't think I'm mistaken it summarizing the use of the laptops in this way:> > * children surf and download> * Teachers ask students to work with Write and Paint.> > (I wish Logo could change this situation a bit because a few teachers were trained in using Logos in Latinamerica, so they could help resurrect some of that culture)> ===========> > > > Regarding Logo, there is a great Logo environment being developed by> > Brian Harvey for Sugar.> > That would indeed be a great addition.> > Daniel> > _______________________________________________> Lista olpc-Sur> <a href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a>> <a href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a><br>
_________________________________________________________________<br>
Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today it's FREE!<br>
<a href="http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/" target="_blank">http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/</a><br>
------------ próxima parte ------------<br>
Se ha borrado un adjunto en formato HTML...<br>
URL: <a href="http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-sur/attachments/20080915/5660daf1/attachment-0001.htm" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/olpc-sur/attachments/20080915/5660daf1/attachment-0001.htm</a><br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 6<br>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:06:09 -0400<br>
From: "Walter Bender" <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>><br>
Subject: Re: [Sur] [OLPC-Peru] Windows en OLPC XO Peru<br>
To: "OLPC en castellano para usuarios, docentes, voluntarios y<br>
administradores" <<a href="mailto:olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-sur@lists.laptop.org</a>><br>
Cc: OLPC_peru <<a href="mailto:peru@lists.laptop.org">peru@lists.laptop.org</a>><br>
Message-ID:<br>
<<a href="mailto:fd535e260809151306h4816ef1ayd50e3b9d42343239@mail.gmail.com">fd535e260809151306h4816ef1ayd50e3b9d42343239@mail.gmail.com</a>><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252<br>
<br>
On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 3:27 PM, Daniel Ajoy <<a href="mailto:da.ajoy@gmail.com">da.ajoy@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
> On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 11:19:34 -0500, Walter Bender <<a href="mailto:walter.bender@gmail.com">walter.bender@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br>
><br>
>> I don't understand the point you are trying to make re Java and Flash.<br>
>> If the MoE thinks it is important, they are welcome preinstall these<br>
>> tools regardless of Windows vs Linux. But you raise it as an issue in<br>
>> a discussion about Windows on the Laptop, as if it is an advantage to<br>
>> running Windows.<br>
><br>
> My point is:<br>
><br>
> * If teachers consider having YouTube and applets educationally valuable (In this discussion list teachers don't ask much but one of the few things that they have asked for is YouTube. I personally don't think that YouTube is very educationally valuable. )<br>
><br>
> * And if the Windows laptops come ready for YouTube and applets (versus current Sugar laptops that don't come ready for YouTube and applets)<br>
><br>
> then that is a plus for the Windows laptops.<br>
<br>
The fact that the current Sugar laptops "don't come ready for YouTube<br>
and applets" is a local choice, not one inherent in the system, so to<br>
argue that one should switch to Windows laptops for something readily<br>
available on *any* laptop seems a bit of a stretch.<br>
<br>
>> And again I ask, what are great tools that are missing in the<br>
>> GNU/Linux world we should be making available?<br>
><br>
> I think the Linux world has great tools, even *enough* great tools.<br>
><br>
> Eg. the Linux world has many spreadsheets. Are they available for the laptop?<br>
<br>
Dan Bricklin, the inventor of the spreadsheet has built a spreadsheet<br>
for Sugar. Also, you can run gnumeric inside the X Activity (I am<br>
testing it right now).<br>
<br>
>> How will the<br>
>> freedom to appropriate they learning experience and learning platform<br>
>> impact their long-term opportunities?<br>
><br>
> I don't see how children working with windows laptops will be less free to appropriate their learning experience, except that the Sugar laptops have peer to peer chat and (some kind of) sharing out of the box.<br>
<br>
Perhaps if the Sugar environment, which includes not just sharing and<br>
chat, but a model of discovery and appropriation as a fundamental<br>
component--we chose Python as a base language so that the teachers and<br>
children would be able to appropriate all aspects of the platform.<br>
<br>
Transparency is empowering. Free and open-source software (and<br>
content) gives children?and their teachers? the freedom to reshape,<br>
reinvent, and reapply. I don't see how a Windows-based platform could<br>
ever achieve this: it goes against the culture.<br>
<br>
-walter<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
_______________________________________________<br>
olpc-Sur mailing list<br>
<a href="mailto:olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org">olpc-Sur@lists.laptop.org</a><br>
<a href="http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur" target="_blank">http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/olpc-sur</a><br>
<br>
<br>
Fin de Resumen de olpc-Sur, Vol 5, Envío 19<br>
*******************************************<br>
</blockquote></div><br></div></div>