[Sur] [IAEP] FW: [OLPC Bolivia] No logro aprender Sugar / I cannot learn Sugar why would YOU want to?
mokurai en earthtreasury.org
mokurai en earthtreasury.org
Mie Jun 15 23:32:26 EDT 2011
On Wed, June 15, 2011 7:45 pm, Steve Thomas wrote:
> 1. I believe Carlos raises valid points
> 2. We need specifics so we can prioritize and address them,
I asked Carlos to check over our existing documentation and tell us, and
in particular me, what is lacking. I await his answer, and invite anybody
else to do the same.
* http://booki.flossmanuals.net/ XO and Sugar manuals
* http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/The_Undiscoverable Known problems, with
Specifics on core Sugar activities
> 1. Let's stop talking in generalities and about volunteer vs
> corporate, we are what we are, so let's make the best of it
> 2. We should work with Carlos (who I find generally very helpful and
> supportive and I firmly believe has a heart to help and that is
> why he made
> the criticisms) to get a list of specific issues, so we can identify
> prioritize solutions.
> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 6:02 PM, Chris Leonard
> <cjlhomeaddress en gmail.com>wrote:
>> On Wed, Jun 15, 2011 at 4:29 PM, Kenneth Wyrick <kmw en caltek.net> wrote:
>> > Chris,
>> > Since this seems to be something you have sincere passion about, would
>> > be willing to simply list/summarize specific points that you see that
>> > Carlos made so we can talk about them point by point to hopefully
>> > at a more succinct overall intention of his communication?
>> I do have a passion for Sugar / OLPC and perhaps that is why I
>> identify with the passion that I see in Carlos' message. I would
>> reprise my comment that the discussion is best carried out *with*
>> Carlos and in Spanish on the lists he posted his message, but I will
>> give it a shot. However, I will say that I cannot really speak to
>> Carlos concerns, that conversation should happen with Carlos. I
>> intersperse my comments with his paragraphs below (prepending mine
>> with "cjl").
>> Quoting from the English translation at
>> First let's acknowledge this as a potentially misleading starting
>> point as tone can easily be mangled by Google Translate.
>> "I work since 1983, using computers as an important tool to earn a
>> living. While working, I had to learn DOS, Windows and Macintosh. I
>> also learned Open Office, Google Docs and Etoys after retiring from
>> cjl - It is clear to me from this that Carlos has a lifetime of
>> expectations formed by the systems that he grew up using. It is a
>> psychological phenomena that "violation of expectations" leads to
>> strong reactions. I've worked as programmer on and off since the late
>> '70's. Yes, I've booted computers from cassette tape, been paid to
>> program on IBM punch cards, have used Wang 8 inch floppies and know
>> what a read-write ring looks like and does. I know where he is coming
>> "I just cannot learn Sugar. I ask for help when I find problems I
>> cannot resolve but I don´t seem to get answers that make any sense."
>> cjl - In this I read frustration at the comnunications channels,
>> I can sympathize with this sentiment and imagine it must be amplified
>> for a native Spanish speaker. In my opinion this is the crux of the
>> message that deserves further exploration of the exact issues and
>> engagement with a positive tone to seek improvements and where
>> possible remedies for the problems that plague Carlos and other users.
>> This is the feedback we've been asking for, it is up to us to take
>> him seriously (as he should be) and draw him out on the details.
>> Sorry, it isn't filed in a bug-tracker with a patch, it will require a
>> "From what I hear at meetings, both in Uruguay and overseas, and from
>> what I read in lists, I can assure I am not the only one having this
>> cjl - No question he is right about this. In fact the lack of
>> feedback from deployments is often bemoaned on the IAEP list. It is
>> just a little amusing and slightly sad that when such feedback comes
>> (however poorly framed), the first response is to reject it,
>> "I beg you excuse my ignorance. If some ignorant like me doesn´t
>> speak clearly, we will continue to waste our time for ever as well as
>> waste the precious time of children and adolescents and trying to
>> convince teachers they don´t know how to teach."
>> "If you are ashamed of confessing you don´t know, continuing in
>> ignorance is more of a shame."
>> cjl - Here Carlos admits his own shortcomings (we all have them)
>> and asks for enlightnement. This to me is a sign of intelligence,
>> admitting one's own limitations.
>> "I said I learned to work with quite diverse computers and operating
>> systems and I just cannot get to learn Sugar. Let´s try to find then,
>> what does Sugar have different from DOS, Windows, Macintosh, Open
>> Office, Google Docs and Etoys."
>> cjl - see earlier comment about "violation of expectations".
>> "A characteristic common to all the systems I was able to learn and
>> use with positive results is they work well. They work well for
>> common people like myself and for most people who need to know the
>> basicas to be able to work, adapting those programs to the specific
>> problems of our jobs or further study. That basic training, enables
>> us to face the challenges the real world presents to all who work
>> and/or study."
>> cjl - Here, I suspect that Carlos is confusing the Sugar Learning
>> environment with the workplace tools he is familiar with. This is
>> understandable, this confusion with the goals of Sugar exists widely
>> and can be hard to overcome. Apparently OLPC has lost deployment
>> opportunities because an XO cannot be used to provide vocational
>> training in Microsoft Office. Int4erestingly, even the smallest steps
>> to allow Windows to run on an XO by tweaking the open firmware
>> produced vehement reactions within the community.
>> cjl - To paraphrase the Haggadah (the Jewish service for the
>> Passover meal) it is incumbent on us to ask and answer the question:
>> "Why is this OS different from all other OSes?"
>> "In a few words, my opinion is Sugar does not work. Those who think
>> otherwise, should just follow the messages in the mail lists,
>> preferrably those in Spanish, the language of Uruguay and several
>> other countries, or become a volunteer and live with the problems."
>> cjl - A not unjustified call for listening closely to the
>> feedback that is given (mostly in Spanish) and to live with real-world
>> deployment issues. Again I see this as a clarion call for more
>> "Why doesn´t it work?"
>> "I will offer my best ignorant´s opinion. Anyone with an answer
>> closer to the truth, please explain it to us so we continue living in
>> armony and progressing for everybody´s benefit."
>> "I will explain, using an imaginary example, my opinion on why Sugar
>> doesn´t even get close to the reliability and usefullness level of the
>> other systems we mentioned."
>> cjl - I have to give him some points on the reliability concern,
>> I would have to ask the question of "usefulness" by asking "usefulness
>> for what purpose", back to the learning tool versus workplace tool
>> "Let´s think of Apple, currently the most successful company in the
>> business, at world level. It acquired its good reputation offering
>> devices that work well since we open the box and programs that most of
>> us can learn how to use with good results within a short time."
>> cjl - Regardless of your feelings about Apple, this is not an
>> inaccurate description of some elements that have contributed to their
>> success. Let's please accept that responding to this by getting into
>> discussions about Apple would be a distraction, so let's avoid doing
>> "Let´s imagine now that Apple directors decide to save money by firing
>> all the great programmers they employ, dedicated to write their
>> operating systems. Let´s imagine they decide that a group of
>> volunteers, worldwide, with a horizontal organization without chiefs,
>> is the latest model in modern business management. What would
>> happen? How much longer would Apple survive? Days? Hours?
>> I am neither complaining, nor criticizing the past or the present."
>> cjl - Well, this is a bit of rehashing OLPC's decision-making
>> around supporting Sugar that lead to the spin out of Sugar Labs back
>> in May 2008. I really, really don't want to re-litigate that, it is
>> water long under the bridge. Those of us who were around at that time
>> remember it as a time of high passions and recriminations, some were
>> even moved to express themselves in outrageous forms
>> (http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/User:Cjl/Random_musings) just to
>> exorcise those demons and move forward with the important work at
>> "Thanks to Sugar and to many other organizations and persons, Plan
>> Ceibal started, it accomplished tremendous progress and it is where
>> it is today. Let´s congratulate all those who helped bring it to this
>> point, from those who made the big decisions, to OLPC and each and
>> all teachers, students, relatives and volunteers."
>> cjl - An acknowledgement that OLPC and Sugar have changed the
>> nature of the discourse around ICT and learning.
>> "Wouldn´t this be the time to recognize Sugar is what is currently
>> preventing us to move ahead, and to dedicate all our tremendous
>> collective intelligence and energy to continue moving ahead? Anyone
>> may trip on a roadblock. We have to get up and continue on our way.
>> We cannot let a program that has problems stop everything."
>> cjl - Sounds like a call to "throw the baby out with the
>> bathwater", I can't say I agree with this conclusion, but Carlos is
>> certainly not the first to make this point. This is an opportunity to
>> engage Carlos in a discussion about the core principles behind Sugar
>> and to examine our own efforts to see how we may be falling short of
>> achieving those principles.
>> "I am happy to see Plan Ceibal is not sleeping and every day is
>> introducing or considering very interesting ideas. I see Portal
>> Ceibal shows information on Khan Academy and Sugata Mitra, among
>> other education ideas that are calling the attention of many people
>> around the world today."
>> cjl - Here Carlos is suggesting that Sugar and an XO laptop alone
>> are not the solution to all problems, a conclusion I heartily agree
>> with. It fails to acknowledge what Sugar and XOs make possible, but I
>> will not quibble there, I will join him in celebrating the ingenuity
>> of local deployments and even children in appropriating the tools they
>> have adopted and reworking them to meet their own needs and desires.
>> At this point I am tempted to shout "Hallelujah" or less aptly
>> "Mission Accomplished". The appropriation of the tools and technology
>> by local communities is the end-game we all seek (I think).
>> cjl - What this leaves out is the sincere desire of Sugar Labs to
>> gather that creative energy back from the deployments and share it
>> with other deployments around the world. Let's be honest in admitting
>> we just don't do this well enough (yet). I myself would like to see
>> OLE Nepal's materials translated into English and hosted on Pootle for
>> anyone to localize into their language of choice (just as an example).
>> This returns us to the need for deeper and more meaningful engagement
>> to harvest both the good and the bad from deployments.
>> cjl - Kenneth, that is how I read Carlos's message. It may not
>> be what he really meant to say and he may not like how I characterize
>> some of his points, but this is just my opinion, which you *did* ask
>> for, You just didn't realize that I would actually give it to you :-)
>> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
>> IAEP en lists.sugarlabs.org
> IAEP -- It's An Education Project (not a laptop project!)
> IAEP en lists.sugarlabs.org
Silent Thunder is my name, and Children are my nation.
The Cosmos is my dwelling place, the Truth my destination.
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