[Localization] XOs for Cambodia (was Beth Kanter sent you a message on Facebook...)

[Edward Cherlin]

Nice to see you on our mailing list, Javier.

On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 7:18 AM, Javier SOLA <javier at khmeros.info> wrote:
> Gerard,
>
>  I know that this is the wrong forum, but here is how I see it.
>
>  There are number of technical problems that any computer for Khmer or
>  Cambodia has to solve.
>
>  - The first one is the difference in size in letters. Some letter are
>  five times smaller than others. In small text (for a small screem like
>  the XO) you cannot see the small letters.

This turns out not to be the case. The XO screen has a resolution of
200 dpi in monochrome. 1200 x 900 overall.

>  - Spacing between lines in Khmer is double than in English (only half
>  the entries fit in a given menu)

The XO makes very little use of menus, and indeed is quite sparse in
its use of text everywhere except content and programming. Anyway, you
can scroll the windows.

>  - The second one is that these FOSS applications for which there are
>  already books and training materials in Khmer... cannot run in the XO
>  because of its specs (small screen, little memory and little storage).

I know of no reason why your content cannot be packaged for the XO. I
know of no reason why we cannot use the XO's Write activity for Khmer
word processing. I know of no reason why the XO cannot perform its
function, leaving other functions to KhmerOS (particularly for older
children).

I admit that the XO is quite small and slow. About as small and about
as slow as an early Cray supercomputer, in fact. Why you think we
cannot do what is needed on this platform, and would prefer that your
elementary students have nothing instead, is beyond me.

>  - The target public for teaching ICT in schools is upper secondary
>  schools, not primary schools, because they will join the labor force
>  soon, and the county needs them.

Fine. You do that, and we will get on with our elementary school program.

>  - The only realistic way to teach is in the schools with a trained
>  teacher. Training teachers, specially in remote areas is very very
>  expensive.

This turns out not to be the case. Young children have astounding
abilities to learn for themselves, and it takes real work for the
schools to convince them to learn only what the teacher presents. I
consider myself fortunate not to have learned that, and wish to pass
on this great gift to other children.

>  - Maintenance of laptops is an huge issue.

The XO is designed so that children can maintain it. The only tool
required is a Phillips screwdriver. Children in several countries are
doing so. You can watch them on YouTube.

>  - The price of a laptop is the money that a rural family needs for one
>  year... at the minimal problem, the laptop will go (for $25, because
>  nobody can pay more)

XOs currently sell on eBay for about $350-$400, I believe. But Oxfam
tells us that parents in famine-ridden regions of Ethiopia say that
they would rather go without food than give up their children's
education.

>  In short, 1) we have something that goes to a different target students
>  than the Ministry of Education needs (in order to create professional
>  skills that the country sorely needs). 2) You cannot install in the XO
>  or use the software that the Ministry has accepted to teach in schools,
>  and that is starting to be used in Cambodian Society.

See the later Harry Potter books for much of my opinion of typically
officious, out-of-touch, trust-us-we're-experts government ministries,
which millions of children evidently share. The kind of people who
say, "When I want to hear _your_ opinion, I'll *tell* it to you."

>  If the XO can solve the real problems (to really help the country by
>  supporting its student training goals and its curriculum) then the XO is
>  most welcome,

Just so.

> but at this point it is more a liability than an asset.

On what evidence?

>  The thought of 20.000 XOs being dropped in Cambodia soon (which means
>  that they are in English),

We have said several times that this will not be the case. Do you
doubt our word?

> without any real support in teachers (who
>  will not volunteer, because they earn $20 a month and have to have other
>  jobs to survive) and no maintenance... scares the hell out of me, it
>  will be amazingly disturbing to our work and to the Ministry while it lasts

I am quite happy with disturbing the Ministry. I intend to. (I don't
speak for OLPC management.)

Actually, in Buddhism we say, "We must always be disturbed by the truth."

>  Nobody in the XO project ever asked what the country needed, they just
>  assumed, and assumed wrong, because their goal number one was not
>  solving a given social or educational problem, but to do something that
>  costs $100... and then try to adapt it to real life... but the specs
>  were fixed for $100, and they really do not fit the real problems of the
>  country.

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but you have no idea what you are
talking about. You have not read our plan, you have not talked to our
people, and you are making this up out of your own fears. For example,
the reason why the XO currently costs
$189 is because the specs were not fixed for $100.

>  We are doing research on low-power consumption and low-maintenance
>  computers, but at this point we can only aim at desktops, because it is
>  the only technology that is sustainable. Experience (many projects with
>  laptops) has taught us that the projects die very quickly for lack of
>  maintenance.

I think we must have better engineers than those you were talking to.
Like Mary Lou Jepsen, who came up with the 200 dpi screen for $30, or
the MIT professor who invented the non-toxic lithium-iron-phosphorus
battery chemistry used in the XO. We have experience with 12-year-olds
maintaining and repairing XOs. There are YouTube videos and written
documentation of this fact that you are evidently entirely unaware of.

>  The AMD LX850 is on the low end of something that is workable, even with
>  SuSE, but not with less than 512K of memory (we have tested several
>  boards). You can run Linux (even SuSE) on 4 GB (such as with the Zombu),
>  but less is making it too small.

Whom _have_ you been talking to? I have been running Ubuntu on 512 MB
until recently, when I started opening too many tabs for comfort in
Firefox, and upgraded to 1 GB. I think our engineers can help you
quite a bit, if you are willing to talk with them.

> For some languages (like Khmer), and
>  specially for schools, you need large screens (15"), and making it
>  smaller is making things very difficult.

I fail to see any difficulty viewing this selection from the Pali
Buddhist Tipitaka (http://www.tipitaka.org/khmr/) in Khmer alphabet.
(Requires Khmer font for viewing, preferably ttf-khmeros, which comes
packaged for Ubuntu and I would expect for Red Hat as well.) If you
can read it on palm leaves, you can read it on a small computer
screen.

២៤. តេន    ខោ បន សមយេន វេសាលិយា អវិទូរេ កលន្ទគាមោ នាម អត្ថិ [កលន្ទគាមោ
នាម ហោតិ (សី.), កលន្ទគាមោ ហោតិ (ស្យា.)]។ តត្ថ សុទិន្នោ នាម កលន្ទបុត្តោ
សេដ្ឋិបុត្តោ ហោតិ។ អថ ខោ សុទិន្នោ កលន្ទបុត្តោ សម្ពហុលេហិ [សម្បហូលេហិ
(សី.)] សហាយកេហិ សទ្ធិំ វេសាលិំ អគមាសិ កេនចិទេវ ករណីយេន ។ តេន ខោ បន
សមយេន ភគវា មហតិយា បរិសាយ បរិវុតោ ធម្មំ ទេសេន្តោ និសិន្នោ ហោតិ។ អទ្ទស
ខោ សុទិន្នោ កលន្ទបុត្តោ ភគវន្តំ មហតិយា បរិសាយ បរិវុតំ ធម្មំ ទេសេន្តំ
និសិន្នំ។ ទិស្វានស្ស ឯតទហោសិ – ''យំនូនាហម្បិ ធម្មំ សុណេយ្យ''ន្តិ។ អថ
ខោ សុទិន្នោ កលន្ទបុត្តោ យេន សា បរិសា តេនុបសង្កមិ; ឧបសង្កមិត្វា ឯកមន្តំ
និសីទិ។ ឯកមន្តំ និសិន្នស្ស ខោ សុទិន្នស្ស កលន្ទបុត្តស្ស ឯតទហោសិ – ''យថា
យថា ខោ អហំ ភគវតា ធម្មំ ទេសិតំ អាជានាមិ, នយិទំ សុករំ អគារំ អជ្ឈាវសតា
ឯកន្តបរិបុណ្ណំ ឯកន្តបរិសុទ្ធំ សង្ខលិខិតំ ព្រហ្មចរិយំ ចរិតុំ; យំនូនាហំ
កេសមស្សុំ ឱហារេត្វា កាសាយានិ វត្ថានិ អច្ឆាទេត្វា អគារស្មា អនគារិយំ
បព្ពជេយ្យ''ន្តិ។ អថ ខោ សា បរិសា ភគវតា ធម្មិយា កថាយ សន្ទស្សិតា សមាទបិតា
សមុត្តេជិតា សម្បហំសិតា ឧដ្ឋាយាសនា ភគវន្តំ អភិវាទេត្វា បទក្ខិណំ កត្វា
បក្កាមិ។

> The specs of the XO are short
>  on all these fronts. Another important issue is to have replacement
>  parts readily available off-the-shelf, otherwise computers just die.

We have experience that you are evidently ignorant of and have not
inquired into, that says entirely otherwise, including the record of
OLPC and Red Hat software developers slimming Fedora Rawhide down so
that it is quite acceptable in 256 MB without a swap partition. I
leave your other hardware objections as exercises for the reader,
since we have replied to them several times.

>  As happens with the XO, usually computers in poor countries are bought
>  by donors, but the education system has to maintain them and pay for
>  electricity. In our costing model, the cost of the computer is much less
>  important that those two.

Not in our costing model. The XO runs on 1/14th of the Energy Star
limit or less. XOs will be powered by local renewable energy sources
in many cases, with no cash outlay after initial installation. See
above for maintenance.

> Our Low Cost computing lab for Education (a
>  joint project with the Ministry of Education -
>  http://www.open.org.kh/locolab) is looking at the problem, and then
>  trying to define models and the type of hardware that is best adapted to
>  the problem, defining minimum criteria (it has to run Linux, Windows XP,
>  the applications, and video at a reasonable speed).

Our MIT engineers have started from quite different design criteria.
The XO has to survive, use Free Software, and support collaborative
discovery, not the conventional curriculum. It is up to Microsoft to
get Windows running on it. (They currently say they need an extra 2 GB
of flash.)

> The XO does not
>  reach the minimum, as it cannot run KDE or OpenOffice reasonably.... and

Well, that's one of the reasons why our people wrote Sugar, and
started from AbiWord instead of OpenOffice.

>  if you can run other things that could be trainslated to Khmer... it
>  would still require training materials, books.. and that would break the
>  unity that we are trying to give to Linux in Cambodia, and this is the
>  only way to compete with Windows. It would also take years of work.

The way to compete with Windows is not to create a different software
monoculture by government fiat, which is in any case impossible. It is
to allow a wide range of variation with strong selection principles
that can have quite different outcomes in different environments.
Evolution, in fact.

>  Saying, as in the email that has made me join this list to answer, that
>  anything that does not fit in the XO is too cluttered...

I said that if you needed more Khmer text in your software than would
fit on the screen, that your user interface is too cluttered. Take a
look at Sugar, which isn't.

> is not to
>  understand the amount of work that takes to do good FOSS software, and
>  the demands from the market...  you cannot reduce what the country needs
>  to what you can deliver in an XO, you need to understand what the
>  country needs.. and as Gerard pointed, "listen".

Yeah, I heard you the first time. If you have documents on your
policies and experimental or observational evidence, cite them. I'm
tired of being told to accept your unsupported opinions.

Now you listen. Go read the documents at http://laptop.org, and other
documents linked from there, and reply to what we actually say, not
what you imagine we say, and to what the XO is and does, not to what
you have imagined in your armchair.

> We are not the boss
>  here, it is the Ministry,

Oh, your Ministry doesn't work for the people?

> we can push them to FOSS, but only because we
>  have given them something that was a perfect fit for what they needed,
>  FOSS in Khmer, well localized. with spell-checkers, trianing methods,
>  textbooks, and trained teachers.

Exactly as we mean to do at the elementary level. We complement you.
We are not the enemy.

>  You cannot just parachute laptops in a developing country and hope that
>  they will help anybody. Education systems have evolved along many years,
>  and they have methodology and goals, if you do not align yourself to
>  them, you will surely fail. If the XO can help on this, then it is most
>  welcome, but at this point I just do not see it, because is fixed in its
>  specs. If it had been a desktop box, in which you could add more memory,
>  upgrade the storage, keep it under $200 without screen, and put the
>  screen that you need, then it would have been better adapted, even if in
>  this field a board like the Intel "Little Valley" would have been
>  cheaper and more performant (in exchange for an important increase in
>  consumption).

The XO is designed to meet real-world requirements, including
ruggedness, the ability to survive and operate for years in rain
forest and other challenging environments, complete absence of an
electric power grid, no cost for software or content, connectivity
extending many kilometers from schools, and collaborative discovery.
You claim that there is no real design process, evidently in complete
ignorance of the documentation on the laptop.org Web site. We claim
that we had a rigorous design process which is quite different from
yours, and in many respects better.

>  If the XO was the best product for what we believe that Cambodia needs,
>  we would be happy to encourage the government to receive the donations

Excellent. Now you only have to change your beliefs to conform with the facts.

>  (the government could never pay for them),

I would like to see an analysis of how much growth would be needed in
order for Cambodia to be able to afford full education for all of its
children. I'm building a financial model of the process, and need more
data.

> but at this moment IMHO it is
>  just the wrong set of specs. It cannot be considered "one size fits
>  all", because the most used FOSS software does not fit.

And your KhmerOS qualifies as "one size fits all" even though it won't
run on the XO? Oh, no, that's right, you said you meant to support
only secondary education with computers. Well, if you won't help the
littler ones, why can't we have them?

>  Javier
...
>  >     I will cite facts again in support of my opinion that your
>  >     objections to the XO and to me are spurious, and request that you cite
>  >     facts in return.

I'm waiting.
-- 
Edward Cherlin
End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business
http://www.EarthTreasury.org/
"The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay