[Localization] XOs for Cambodia (was Beth Kanter sent you a message on Facebook...)
Javier SOLA
javier at khmeros.info
Fri Feb 22 10:18:29 EST 2008
Gerard,
I know that this is the wrong forum, but here is how I see it.
There are number of technical problems that any computer for Khmer or
Cambodia has to solve.
- The first one is the difference in size in letters. Some letter are
five times smaller than others. In small text (for a small screem like
the XO) you cannot see the small letters.
- Spacing between lines in Khmer is double than in English (only half
the entries fit in a given menu)
- The second one is that these FOSS applications for which there are
already books and training materials in Khmer... cannot run in the XO
because of its specs (small screen, little memory and little storage).
- The target public for teaching ICT in schools is upper secondary
schools, not primary schools, because they will join the labor force
soon, and the county needs them.
- The only realistic way to teach is in the schools with a trained
teacher. Training teachers, specially in remote areas is very very
expensive.
- Maintenance of laptops is an huge issue.
- The price of a laptop is the money that a rural family needs for one
year... at the minimal problem, the laptop will go (for $25, because
nobody can pay more)
In short, 1) we have something that goes to a different target students
than the Ministry of Education needs (in order to create professional
skills that the country sorely needs). 2) You cannot install in the XO
or use the software that the Ministry has accepted to teach in schools,
and that is starting to be used in Cambodian Society.
If the XO can solve the real problems (to really help the country by
supporting its student training goals and its curriculum) then the XO is
most welcome, but at this point it is more a liability than an asset.
The thought of 20.000 XOs being dropped in Cambodia soon (which means
that they are in English), without any real support in teachers (who
will not volunteer, because they earn $20 a month and have to have other
jobs to survive) and no maintenance... scares the hell out of me, it
will be amazingly disturbing to our work and to the Ministry while it lasts
Nobody in the XO project ever asked what the country needed, they just
assumed, and assumed wrong, because their goal number one was not
solving a given social or educational problem, but to do something that
costs $100... and then try to adapt it to real life... but the specs
were fixed for $100, and they really do not fit the real problems of the
country.
We are doing research on low-power consumption and low-maintenance
computers, but at this point we can only aim at desktops, because it is
the only technology that is sustainable. Experience (many projects with
laptops) has taught us that the projects die very quickly for lack of
maintenance.
The AMD LX850 is on the low end of something that is workable, even with
SuSE, but not with less than 512K of memory (we have tested several
boards). You can run Linux (even SuSE) on 4 GB (such as with the Zombu),
but less is making it too small. For some languages (like Khmer), and
specially for schools, you need large screens (15"), and making it
smaller is making things very difficult. The specs of the XO are short
on all these fronts. Another important issue is to have replacement
parts readily available off-the-shelf, otherwise computers just die.
As happens with the XO, usually computers in poor countries are bought
by donors, but the education system has to maintain them and pay for
electricity. In our costing model, the cost of the computer is much less
important that those two. Our Low Cost computing lab for Education (a
joint project with the Ministry of Education -
http://www.open.org.kh/locolab) is looking at the problem, and then
trying to define models and the type of hardware that is best adapted to
the problem, defining minimum criteria (it has to run Linux, Windows XP,
the applications, and video at a reasonable speed). The XO does not
reach the minimum, as it cannot run KDE or OpenOffice reasonably.... and
if you can run other things that could be trainslated to Khmer... it
would still require training materials, books.. and that would break the
unity that we are trying to give to Linux in Cambodia, and this is the
only way to compete with Windows. It would also take years of work.
Saying, as in the email that has made me join this list to answer, that
anything that does not fit in the XO is too cluttered... is not to
understand the amount of work that takes to do good FOSS software, and
the demands from the market... you cannot reduce what the country needs
to what you can deliver in an XO, you need to understand what the
country needs.. and as Gerard pointed, "listen". We are not the boss
here, it is the Ministry, we can push them to FOSS, but only because we
have given them something that was a perfect fit for what they needed,
FOSS in Khmer, well localized. with spell-checkers, trianing methods,
textbooks, and trained teachers.
You cannot just parachute laptops in a developing country and hope that
they will help anybody. Education systems have evolved along many years,
and they have methodology and goals, if you do not align yourself to
them, you will surely fail. If the XO can help on this, then it is most
welcome, but at this point I just do not see it, because is fixed in its
specs. If it had been a desktop box, in which you could add more memory,
upgrade the storage, keep it under $200 without screen, and put the
screen that you need, then it would have been better adapted, even if in
this field a board like the Intel "Little Valley" would have been
cheaper and more performant (in exchange for an important increase in
consumption).
If the XO was the best product for what we believe that Cambodia needs,
we would be happy to encourage the government to receive the donations
(the government could never pay for them), but at this moment IMHO it is
just the wrong set of specs. It cannot be considered "one size fits
all", because the most used FOSS software does not fit.
Javier
Gerard Meijssen wrote
> Hoi,
> What is the benefit in all of this sniping? There is an existing
> project in Cambodia that uses Free software to build the Cambodian
> curriculum. GREAT. There is a world wide project that aims to bring
> computers and educational software to the children of this world. GREAT.
>
> Now the software developed in Cambodia runs on a different platform.
> This means that a lot of work needs doing in order to make the
> Cambodian curriculum to run on the XO. This is a pain. But given that
> the software is already Linux based and freely licensed it is not the
> drama it could be.
>
> So, it was made clear that all the Cambodian software is available for
> the XO to run. It just needs to be made to run it. When the XO is
> considered to be a "one size fits all" environment, you do not do the
> "little system that can" justice. When the XO is unknown to the people
> that work on the Khmer curriculum, you cannot fault them for not
> accepting it blindly. When they do know the system you cannot blame
> them for finding it not the panacea to all educational problems.
>
> When you are an "evangelist" for a cause, the first thing that you
> have to do is listen. Listen, pay attention and explain how you bring
> educational good on earth. Even though you need to convert Javier to
> this "true belief" of the XO you do a good job at convincing him of
> the opposite. When you are to evangelise the good cause, you should
> realise that it is not about you and what you think.
>
> Thanks,
> GerardM
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 22, 2008 at 12:07 PM, Edward Cherlin <echerlin at gmail.com
> <mailto:echerlin at gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Javier,
>
> I cited facts in opposition to your objections to the OLPC XO. I also
> stated my opinions about your opinions, which do show signs typical of
> NIH syndrome (most notably, making spurious objections to a competing
> project), and stated that one of your claims is laughable. (I laughed
> at it.) I do not consider it insulting to say that someone is in
> error, even serious error, or to suggest possible reasons. You may say
> what you like about my opinions, but I object vehemently when you try
> to tell me with great and completely misplaced confidence what I am
> thinking.
>
> I see no facts that tell in any way against me or the XO in this
> diatribe of yours.
>
> * You live in Cambodia and are working on an education plan for
> Cambodia. That's the entire substance of what you say. The rest is
> overheated opinion.
>
> * I live in the known universe, and I am working with a large number
> of other people on an education plan for the children of the entire
> world. I will cite facts again in support of my opinion that your
> objections to the XO and to me are spurious, and request that you cite
> facts in return.
>
> On Thu, Feb 21, 2008 at 8:36 AM, Javier SOLA <javier at khmeros.info
> <mailto:javier at khmeros.info>> wrote:
> > Edward,
> >
> > The difference between an talker (or evangelist as you call
> yourself)
> > and a doer is that the evangelist always talks about theory,
> and never
> > touches reality.
>
> I have been a Peace Corps Volunteer in Korea, teaching English in the
> classroom, and I have taught other subjects at levels from preschool
> through graduate study since then. I have managed the creation of Free
> Software for schools in multiple languages. I spent several years in
> Buddhist monasteries, where I did jobs such as cooking for the
> community, building a school and monastic buildings, and herding
> goats. You are not describing me.
>
> > He believes that he has the right to insult and degrade
> > those who do real work, believes that he is an intellectual and
> that
> > what he imagines in his intellectuialisation of problems is the
> one and
> > only truth.
>
> I believe no such things. Do you believe that you have the right to
> insult and degrade intellectuals? Or me?
>
> I have not insulted you or anybody else doing real work. I heartily
> approve of KhmerOS as part of the solution, but I don't think it is or
> can be the complete solution for education in Cambodia. (There is no
> one solution. I believe in what works, not what sounds good.) I have
> complained (giving my reasons) about your publicly stated opinions,
> which I find spurious and objectionable. If you object to my
> objections to your objections to OLPC, say what the problem is, and do
> not attack me as a substitute for reasoned debate.
>
> You claim, then, that you have tried the XO, that you do not suffer
> from NIH, and that none of the facts I adduced are relevant? Let's
> hear it.
>
> > I live in Cambodia and I am in charge of writing the Master
> Plan for ICT
> > in Education for the country,
>
> It doesn't show up in Google. Is there a URL for it? Wait, is this it?
> http://www.open.org.kh/en/node/45
>
> Phase II - December 2007 to September 2008
>
> * Draft a Master Plan for ICT in Education, which will include
> specific objectives for the deployment of ICT in Cambodia's education
> system. The Plan will cover a span of five to seven years.
>
> You are beating your breast about a plan that doesn't even exist in
> draft form? How can I possibly discuss it with you?
>
> > based on reality, not on trying to push a specific gadget.
>
> "It's an education program, not a laptop program."--Nicholas
> Negroponte
>
> And certainly not a gadget program. Again, state your objections to my
> objections, and do not insult my project and the project of thousands
> of developers and hundreds of thousands of children gratuitously.
>
> More than 10,000 OLPC XO computers are going to arrive in Cambodia
> this year, running Free Software localized into Khmer. Where does this
> fact fit into your non-existent Master Plan? Are you aware of it
> happening?
>
> > I assume responsibility for what I do and for the
> > students who spend their time studying the curriculums that we
> prepare.
> > Cambodia is the first (and only) country to have changed its
> education
> > system to use FOSS applications, and this is the result of five
> years of
> > hard work here, not of some easy-chair writing in California.
>
> There you go again.
>
> I have the idea, based on published material, that Cambodia's
> changeover to FOSS for education (applause) had something to do with
> Nicholas Negroponte's work in Cambodia, and his work with the
> Cambodian government. If this is not the case, say so, and state what,
> in your judgment, really happened. Do not insult those who developed
> the OLPC education plan in Cambodia, not just in Cambridge,
> Massachusetts, and certainly not in California.
>
> > You want to know what the reality of Camboya is? Come here and work
> > here, you are welcome to join us... and if after five months
> you still
> > think that the OLPC is the response to the needs of Cambodia,
> or that it
> > will help the list, go ahead and work on it... but I very much
> doubt
> > that you would. Your signature in a prior message says "End
> Poverty at a
> > Profit by teaching children business"... you would understand
> what this
> > means here, and how little the OLPC responds to this...
>
> I would be delighted to work in Cambodia, and particularly to meet and
> work with the Cambodian children. Would you work for five months with
> children using XOs, when they get to Cambodia?
>
> But I have no idea what you think I would learn that I do not
> understand from my time in Korea. I grant that the Khmer Rouge messed
> up Cambodia worse than the Japanese messed up Korea during their time
> of imperial rule, or the North Koreans messed up South Korea during
> their war. But why do you think that I don't know how it is when there
> are too few teachers, not enough schools, and no follow-up past a
> certain age, after a seeming eternity of soul-searing oppression and
> ultraviolent war? My own relatives endured similar oppression and
> murder in Europe not so long before, and several other peoples are
> enduring variations on that same theme today.
>
> Oh, BTW, I was in the hills north of Seoul when the North Korean
> assassination team came through not far away on their way to kill
> President Pak Cheonghi. The didn't get near him, but they ended up
> surrounded by police near a school where my best friend in the Peace
> Corps worked. They threw a grenade on a bus just before they were
> captured, killing several people, including a good friend of my
> friend, who was as you might expect rather bent out of shape about it.
>
> I keep a photograph that I took in Korea on the wall by my desk. It
> shows a manual laborer, who probably earned the equivalent of $1.50 a
> day, pausing from his work to look at the traffic going by in the
> downtown banking and shopping district of Seoul. I was told that when
> it was published in Korea it startled Koreans, who realized that they
> never thought about how their rapid modernization looked to those not
> able to take part in it. I never forget that fact.
>
> So, no, I do not understand "how little the OLPC responds to" actual
> needs that I have actually worked on, and I don't expect to.
>
> > Buit it seems to be a much easier path that to insult those who
> do real
> > work, just to defend a gadget that is not up to the needs of a
> poor country.
>
> This ranting is unworthy of you, and brings shame on your education
> plan, your KhmerOS, and the Cambodians you are trying to help.
>
> The OLPC XO was designed specifically to meet the stringent
> requirements of poor students in countries where electrical supplies
> are unreliable or nonexistent. It is the most rugged low-cost computer
> available, running on the lowest power, with the best screen and
> wireless technologies and the latest in non-toxic batteries and screen
> backlights. It runs the only suite of software designed for
> collaborative discovery. I use it regularly at conferences and other
> public meetings, although for my professional work I need to use
> graphics and publishing tools such as GIMP, Scribus, and OpenOffice
> that will not fit on it.
>
> What's your alternative? KhmerOS running on what? How do the village
> children power the much bigger computers required to run OpenOffice?
> Can they take their computers home? If they can, can they network from
> home to school and with all of their classmates? What is your plan for
> getting Internet to every school in Cambodia?
>
> I expect answers. So you go ahead, too. Ask me whatever you like
> about the XO.
>
> > Shame on you.
>
> "How happy we are, not hating those who hate us."--Theragatha
>
> Go on. Try it. You might find out that people don't hate you as much
> as you think.
>
> > Javier Solá
> >
> > P.D. Of course, you are free to use anything that we have done,
> that is
> > the spirit in which we do it.
>
> I expect to see Sugar running on KhmerOS, too.
>
> > P.D. Hi Sayamindu, long time...
> >
> >
> > Edward Cherlin wrote
> >
> >
> > > Side note: Sayamindu, why is there no Khmer localization on
> Pootle?
> > > Put one up now. I'm bringing Cambodians in, as you can see,
> and there
> > > are plenty of Cambodian .po files elsewhere for us to start from.
> > >
> > > KhmerOS: Please forward this e-mail to Javier Sola and to
> anybody else
> > > who might be interested.
> > >
> > > On Feb 19, 2008 8:04 AM, Facebook
> > > <notification+o4ysy=99 at facebookmail.com
> <mailto:99 at facebookmail.com>> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >> Re: OLPC XOs in Cambodia
> > >>
> > >> Edward,
> > >>
> > >> No I don't .... [know where in Cambodia the XOs are going.]
> > >>
> > >> One problem is that the Khmer OS software doesn't scale well
> on the screen.
> > >>
> > >
> > > I believe that this and the rest of Javier Sola's objections at
> > > http://beth.typepad.com/beths_blog/2007/09/give-one-get-on.html
> > > are spurious, in part because he obviously hasn't tried it,
> in part
> > > because he appears to be suffering from Not Invented Here
> syndrome as
> > > a member of the KhmerOS Executive Committee, and in part for the
> > > following positive reasons.
> > >
> > > * XOs run a version of Red Hat Linux, Fedora Rawhide 7.
> Anything from
> > > KhmerOS on SUSE Linux can run on it immediately, or be easily
> ported.
> > > (And there is no reason for KhmerOS to be distribution-specific.
> > > Everything in it should have been contributed to the upstream
> > > repositories.)
> > >
> > > * All of the Khmer localizations are in external .po files
> that will
> > > work immediately on the XO. We will of course data-mine them
> for our
> > > own localizations.
> > >
> > > * The XO does not run OpenOffice, which is indeed too large.
> But we
> > > have our own word processor and will soon have a spreadsheet
> from Dan
> > > Bricklin.
> > >
> > > * We will use stock Khmer Unicode fonts, the standard Pango
> rendering
> > > for Khmer, and a stock Khmer keyboard layout file slightly
> modified
> > > for the locations of specific keys on the XO. Keytops for
> Cambodia
> > > will be printed with Khmer and Latin alphabetic characters, and a
> > > keyboard switching key assignment will be set.
> > >
> > > * The XO has a 200 dpi display. If we can't read your
> software, your
> > > screens are too cluttered.
> > >
> > > I can't very well answer Javier's objections to the XO's
> design, since
> > > he doesn't say what they are. But it is laughable for him to
> claim
> > > that the XO design does not take conditions in Cambodia into
> account.
> > > Cambodia was the site of Nicholas Negroponte's first
> experiments in
> > > computers for all students. The MIT Media Lab and then OLPC
> have been
> > > in contact with the Cambodian Ministry of Education ever since.
> > >
> > > http://www.andycarvin.com/archives/2005/09/creating_the_10.html
> > >
> > >
> > >> There's also a national plan for educational technology in
> process - you should connect to that.
> > >>
> > >
> > > We already have. The Ministry of Education is well aware that
> more
> > > than 10,000 XOs will be coming to Cambodia.
> > >
> > >
> > >> Some folks left comments on these posts
> > >> http://beth.typepad.com/beths_blog/2007/09/give-one-get-on.html
> > >>
> > >> I can help connect to you some folks if you want.
> > >>
> > >
> > > Yes, please. Give them my contact information, and encourage
> them to
> > > join the relevant OLPC mailing lists at
> http:lists.laptop.org/ <http://lists.laptop.org/>. They
> > > should check out Localization, Development, and Grassroots,
> at least.
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> Edward Cherlin
> End Poverty at a Profit by teaching children business
> http://www.EarthTreasury.org/
> "The best way to predict the future is to invent it."--Alan Kay
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