[OLPC-Games] Play Go issues for laptop

Walter Bender walter.bender at gmail.com
Fri Oct 24 08:58:44 EDT 2008 

Great feedback!! Especially in light of consideration of our learning
goals. Thanks.

-walter

On Fri, Oct 24, 2008 at 4:02 AM, Paul Barchilon <shimari at comcast.net> wrote:
> Hi Andres,
>
> Here is a list of most of the problems.  Some of these may be caused by
> running the program on the emulator.  I was able to fix the view menu,
> thanks for the suggestion.  With komi the scoring is correct, except the
> half point issue.  The number of prisoners I had in the games I played did
> not make it evident that there was komi, I thought they just weren't being
> counted, or in one case added to the wrong color.
>
> 1) A player should be able to choose color as well as board size.
>
> 2) Your program is strong enough to beat any beginner, so you need to create
> a handicap module.  With handicaps, the AI could play people at 18 different
> ranks, guaranteeing a lot more interest in the game.  If a beginner simply
> loses every game, they will rapidly lose interest.
>
> 3) The scoring mechanism is abstract and confusing.  A visual display of
> prisoners would be helpful.  The game lists prisoners as "score" which is
> not correct.  Komi is not indicated anywhere, but that should also be
> something you can choose along with handicap.  It should be displayed on the
> side, along with "Prisoners" for each side.
>
> 4) The computer waits to display the move you make until after it has
> decided on its move.  This makes a person think their move hasn't been
> registered.  When the move does appear, it comes at the same time as your
> prior move.  When there are many stones on the board, it is extremely
> difficult to find where the computer moved - especially if it is not in the
> same area.  The last played stone for either color should have a circle or
> some other mark in it.
>
> 5) The program does not understand the concept of dead stones.  It must
> surround and capture stones in order to score them.  In actual play when
> both players realize a group or a stone has no possibility of making two
> eyes,
> the group is simply abandoned.  It is not necessary to spend extra stones to
> capture them, they should be removed automatically at the end of the game.
>  Obviously this is a difficult assessment for the computer to make. KGS
> solves this problem by asking the player to mark any dead stones.  Some kind
> of pop up menu that explains the concept and tells a person to mark the
> stones prior to scoring would work.  It is a little tricky because new
> players won't know which stones are dead either.  Solving this problem will
> take some creativity, but I am sure we can come up with something.  I have
> screen captures to demonstrate this, but I am not attaching them to this
> message as doing so seems to cause the message to be blocked from the list.
>  I will try sending the screen caps to your personal e-mail and see if that
> works.
>
> 6) The program makes unnecessary moves at the end of the game.  It appears
> to think that all stones must be connected into a single group.  It also
> fills points and makes eyes where they are not needed.  This could actually
> cause the program to lose a game it has won, and it could possibly cause it
> to fill a liberty that would put its own group in danger, or create a seki.
>  Again, I have a screen cap for this.
>
> 7) I get hovering ghost stones that get stuck on the board.  They are
> semi-transparent, and occur at random.  This may be something the emulator
> is causing.
>
> 8) I have had difficulty starting a second game with the AI every time.  It
> fails to clear the board if you click "Play against Play Go." If you hit the
> reload arrow, it clears the board, but then nothing happens after you play
> your stone.  It seems to be in two player mode.  If you click play against
> play go again, still nothing happens.  Then if you place a second stone, the
> AI kicks in and you are white and the computer plays black, but the person
> had to play the first two stones.  I had to keep clicking on reload and new
> game repeatedly to get it to launch another game.  The first one always
> worked, the others are problematic.  Could be an emulation issue.
>
> 9) I see no way to choose opponents, and no way to negotiate color with them
> either.  If two kids are playing over their local network, they need to be
> able to do this.  Perhaps this functionality has not been added to the
> program yet.  A chat interface within the program would be helpful for this
> kind of thing, although perhaps kids could use the OLPC chat program while
> they are playing.  Whatever the case, some communication is necessary to
> start the game.
>
> 10) The introduction page, from Wikipedia, is not really a good guide for
> kids.  Our Tigersmouth explanation is better, but probably needs alteration
> for this project too.  The Interactive Way to Go might be the best choice,
> as it is already in a great many languages.  It needs Java to run though.
>  Does Java come pre-installed on the laptops?  I tried to download and
> install it, but it wouldn't work.  We don't want kids to have to download
> something separate to learn how to play.  A tutorial within the program
> might be a better way to explain the game to kids.  We could write the words
> and create the moves if that is something you might be able to implement.  A
> learn the rules button could launch this mode, kids could click on a button
> to advance after they read each description and looked at the example.
>
> We should play on KGS and talk about these things.  I think you are three
> hours earlier than I am, depending on where in Uruguay you are.  I am GMT
> -7.  Evenings are good for me, but I could play during the day if necessary.
> Next Wednesday, the 29th, would work for me.  Other days are okay too, let
> me know what works for you.  the 13 year old who has a laptop said he might
> be able to join us also.  He thinks he is about 19 kyu, he cannot beat your
> program.
>
> I am very glad your English is so good, my Spanish is terrible ;)
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> Paul Barchilon,
> American Go Foundation
>
> http://tigersmouth.org
> http://agfgo.org
>
>
>
>
>
> On Oct 23, 2008, at 1:40 AM, Andrés Ambrois wrote:
>
>> On Thursday 23 October 2008 05:15:36 you wrote:
>>>
>>> I sent this message last week, but it came back with a message that it
>>> needed moderation (I guess because I included a screen shot).  It
>>> appears to have never been posted to the list, so here it is again
>>> without the image:
>>>
>>> Hi Andres,
>>
>> Hi!
>>
>>> I spent a good deal of time playing with the program and overall was
>>> quite impressed!  It looks great, and plays fairly well.  There are
>>> many little problems, and a couple of major ones.  The scoring engine
>>> got the wrong result on every game I played, there are clearly some
>>> mistaken instructions in the module itself.  Should I post the
>>> problems to this list or would it be better to talk about them on the
>>> phone, or during a game on KGS?  This week is looking pretty busy for
>>> me, so it would have to be next week for the latter.  I am on mountain
>>> time in the US, where are you?
>>
>>  Thanks! I wonder how the scoring engine is failing. What it does is take
>> your territories, subtract the prisoners your enemy has taken, and if
>> you're
>> White add 5.5 komi. The scores are currently displaying as integers, this
>> is
>> stupid and I need to fix it.
>>
>>  Please post any problems you find :). I'm from Uruguay, so your phone
>> bill is
>> going to be an issue =P.
>>
>>> Also, I am unable to right click in the software.  I think the
>>> emulation doesn't recognize my mouse.  Option click or command click
>>> don't trigger it either.  This means I can't access the jabber online
>>> play option you were mentioning.
>>
>>  Right clicking is not necessary, if you just leave the mouse over what
>> you're trying to "right-click" on for a few seconds, it will have the same
>> effect.
>>
>>> When I browse the web, sites are enlarged to the wrong screen
>>> resolution.  As a result, fonts are huge, and you can only see the top
>>> left corner of a web site, even one that is at 800x600.  Is there a
>>> way to control this in the program, or from outside of it?  Is it
>>> doing this because I am on a Mac and using an emulator?  I attach a
>>> screen shot of our Tiger's Mouth site so you can see the problem.
>>
>> I believe this is a problem with the emulator. Maybe this can help you
>> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Emulating_the_XO/Quick_Start/Mac and more
>> specifically this:
>>
>> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Emulating_the_XO/Help_and_tips#Font_Size_correction
>>
>> If that doesn't work, you can at least reduce the font size in Browse in
>> the
>> "View" Menu, or by pressing Ctrl+-.
>>
>> Cheers!
>>
>>> Thanks,
>>>
>>> Paul
>>>
>>> http://tigersmouth.org
>>>
>>> Paul Barchilon
>>> 1005 36th St.
>>> Boulder, CO 80303-2139
>>> 303-440-7124
>>>
>>> On Oct 12, 2008, at 1:50 PM, Andrés Ambrois wrote:
>>>>
>>>> On Sunday 12 October 2008 17:28:15 Paul Barchilon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi Walter,
>>>>>
>>>>> That was exactly the right question to ask!  I was trying the LiveCD
>>>>> method with XO-LiveCD_080919.iso, which didn't work.  When I
>>>>> created a
>>>>> "new PC" in Qemu and told it to use olpc-redhat-stream-ship.2-
>>>>> devel_ext3.img then it worked.
>>>>>
>>>>> Still trying to figure out how to get the screen size to the
>>>>> appropriate dimensions, and now I have to figure out how to use your
>>>>> OS.  From there I will load PlayGo and get back to all of you.
>>>>> Thanks
>>>>> for the help, I am glad I got in finally!
>>>>
>>>> Great! I'm glad you got it. To install PlayGo just head to
>>>> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/PlayGo with the Browse activity and click
>>>> on the
>>>> PlayGo.xo link in the box on the upper right. Then you can launch it
>>>> from the
>>>> Journal or in the list view in the Home.
>>>>
>>>>> Here is another comment from the kid who is giving me feedback on his
>>>>> laptop:
>>>>>
>>>>> From    leinad
>>>>> Date    10/11/2008 23:39
>>>>> Subject RE: one thing about playgo i can
>>>>> i dont think it is online i think you have to be physically near
>>>>> another XO...
>>>>> and i do not have access to wi-fi that frequently...
>>>>> also i noticed that the program does not take away dead stones...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not sure if he means it doesn't take dead stones off during
>>>>> play,
>>>>> or at the end, both are important though.  I will definitely want to
>>>>> play a game with Andres on KGS, I think we could figure out all the
>>>>> problems quite quickly that way.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure about what he means by that either. The game does take
>>>> away
>>>> dead stones, and supports collaboration. To play it "online" you
>>>> will need to
>>>> connect to an online jabber server. If you have a recent version of
>>>> the
>>>> system, this is done by right clicking on the "XO guy" in the home
>>>> view ->
>>>> Control Panel -> Network and typing: jabber.laptop.org in the
>>>> "Server" field.
>>>> Then, you will need to click on the "tick" mark and restart Sugar.
>>>>
>>>> Sure, I'm on KGS now as a guest, my handle is aambrois. Please go
>>>> easy on me
>>>> =P.
>>>>
>>>>> Thanks,
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul
>>>>
>>>> Thank you!
>>>>
>>>>> http://barchilonceramics.com
>>>>>
>>>>> Paul Barchilon
>>>>> 1005 36th St.
>>>>> Boulder, CO 80303-2139
>>>>> 303-440-7124
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> -Andrés
>>
>> --
>>  -Andrés
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Games mailing list
> Games at lists.laptop.org
> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/games
>
>



-- 
Walter Bender
Sugar Labs
http://www.sugarlabs.org

More information about the Games mailing list