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Edward Cherlin wrote:<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:e574f6eb0805190047w58bc7c9ds9c1baeec95483e41@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">You can't expect every kid to spontaneously
generate the sum of human knowledge by playing with plastic blocks.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
You don't have the slightest idea what Constructionism is, as this
demonstrates. </pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Edward: as far as I remenber you told the same some time ago: "do you
know what is construccionism?"...<br>
well... it seems that I knew it, but I studied (a lot more) some of the
papers and documents that are around... <br>
from the same Papert, from the very same Alan Kay, and all document
that I was able to pick up... so<br>
(if my 2 neurons are working) now I am sure that I know what is
construccionism. But.. again... as far as I remenber you have<br>
stated (or it was Papert?) that construccionism is not to be explained
in just a few words.<br>
<br>
I hope that this aproach changes because IF we can not explain it in
few words then I have to wonder<br>
how we can think that the peruvian teachers have caught the
"construccionism" idea when they took those<br>
"prussian" and "instruccionist" order to study the construccionism
around year 2000.<br>
<br>
I think that construccionism is not working fine in Peru. Or it was
not correctly taught, or it is not implemented,<br>
or the whole idea is too big (too much words for something that is
natural to the human been: adapt to the<br>
circumstances. Everything (even the most prussian or isntruccionist
method get assimilited by the human<br>
been by a construccionist process). Everyone can play if this is
construccionism or constructivism. <br>
<br>
By the way, all the people that is worried about construccionism,
should train his dog. IF you are not able<br>
to train your dog using construccionist methods (constructivist, ok?)
is lacking a deep understanding of<br>
the principles (learning by doing). Or... let's be fair... they don't
like dogs! (but a good reading about<br>
all the dog training methods will bring a big surprise... dogs are
trained with some constructivist methods<br>
from many years ago... ask the germans BEFORE the 1st world war).<br>
<br>
All the people that is worry about IF construccionism works or not...
they can come to Peru and develop a serious<br>
study about how it is working in Peru. As far as I have learn there
are hundreds of schools in all social<br>
levels that are applying this "construccionism".<br>
<br>
I ask myself somethings related to construccionism:<br>
<br>
a) Who decided that our peruvian children needs XOs with
construccionism inside and not a plain Laptop?<br>
(what studies and previous experience have been around the whole world
to prove that this works... or is<br>
that the peruvian children have taken as "guinea pigs" to develop and
prove some educational theories).<br>
ohh... I remenber who... our Minister of Education knew Mr. Papert some
time ago... well.. the same:<br>
where is the BASE LINE ? What are the guaranties that this "peruvian
deployment" will not fail as the<br>
previous one that were develop in other countries?<br>
<br>
b) Please Edward don't cite some obscure document written about some
schools or some experiment. That is not<br>
good enough. You, as any person that develop science, knows that this
is a pilot and after your pilot<br>
succeed you need to <b><u>VALIDATE</u></b> the data. And for
validation you need <b><u>BIG numbers of tests</u></b> and analysis.<br>
<br>
Are the peruvian kids the one that are going to validate the
"Construccionism/XO" as a tool for the<br>
development and poverty solution? If that is true then you got by
blessings. But, honestly, you,<br>
specially you Edward, you need to lower your tone. Our kids are doing
you a favor, we, all peruvians<br>
are doing you a favor.. what if ALL THIS FAILS? Some humility and
recognition that this whole<br>
things is walking on thin ice should be good for the sake of the
children. <br>
<br>
Saying all the time "I have the reason and all the other ones are
wrong" put the whole project in a very bad situation.<br>
Why? Becuase some peruvian politics believe in what you are saying. IF
the project fails I will live<br>
in MY country for the rest of the life with all the damage that can
happen (in educational and<br>
politic affairs), you, Edward, will come back to your daily life. Who
is taken the risk? We, the<br>
peruvians. So, please, don't present the whole thing as the "holly
grial" because you are doing<br>
damage to the future not only of the kids but for the whole peruvian
population. Let's don't play<br>
with the expectations of humble people. Let's deliver a computer that
works, first point. Then<br>
we can add some "fireworks" and in a very humble tone we can speak
about the way that the<br>
peruvian teachers will teach to the peruvian kids. These, in some
sense, are more my kids that<br>
your kids, Edward.<br>
<br>
b) You don't need to brake a leg to know that it will hurt. This simple
fact can be seen as an instruccionist<br>
way of learning or a construccionism (deduction) way of learning. Both
things are sides of the same<br>
coin. And both things are natural to the human. The mother that tells
his boy "don't touch the fire"<br>
is pure instruccionist. If she allows that the child feels the heat of
the fire then it is a "constructivist"<br>
education, but... it is not practical! (please, don't answer with a
simple interpretation of my words,<br>
you are an intelligent and educated person and you know what I mean
with this example. Sorry<br>
about my poor English).<br>
<br>
c) It is very educative to read your post and chat with your brilliant
mind. Unlucky we<br>
are that you, Edward, don't have a deep knowledge about the peruvian
society and you<br>
think that your thoughts are the only true. That is not very
construccionist by the way.<br>
You are telling us, in a very instruccionist way, read this, think
that, check this, and <br>
review that. Very funny situation!<br>
<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:e574f6eb0805190047w58bc7c9ds9c1baeec95483e41@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Spoon-feeding facts into a kid
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
That's would be Instructionism, with the correction, "alleged facts".
I can cite plenty of experts on the fact that current textbooks are
full of errors and outright lies. Richard Feynman on math and physics
books up before the Los Angeles textbook committee, for example.
</pre>
</blockquote>
d) Edward, I am very old guy. I have seen many times how someone cites
the work of a third<br>
person, this cites the words/work/studies of a fourth guy, then this
one cites the works of<br>
the first person. All of them sit on the same table, know each other,
are friends, work in<br>
the same fields. Citing this or that paper doens't help. (well it
helps... just a little... just<br>
in the first moment.. but then MANY PEOPLE realize that it is a closed
circle).<br>
<br>
Sometimes this happens by the worst of the reasons: money, fame, ego,
power. In<br>
science issues it has been saw many times, in many fields.<br>
<br>
The only thing that can be a valid demonstration or a valid path is to
tell us when,<br>
where was done a study about the education in Peru (I speak about what
I know),<br>
and establish a BASE LINE. Then we can be able to do comparisons: how
the<br>
kids were BEFORE the "XO/Sugar/Construccionism" and AFTER 2 or 3 years<br>
of working with the model. If those studies exist under 7 keys and
away from the<br>
public eyes then we need to think how to get them and publish them.<br>
<br>
The whole energy issue (that is so different in Peru) is a
demonstration that the<br>
right information was not collected in the proper time. Who did it in
the wrong<br>
way? It doesn't matter. The true thing is that a lower profile must be
taken<br>
with the whole project because things are not happening as they were
intended for.<br>
<br>
Don't cite books or scholars.. come to Peru with a team to pick up the
data of <br>
the pilots and the data about construccionism. I am sure that the
people in charge<br>
of the education in Peru will welcome you and will work with you. All
the other<br>
happenings are just words. Let's hit ground, let's go to the field.<br>
<br>
e) As you have noticed I am friend of the XO/Laptop idea. But I don't
see the point<br>
in doing a "dead or live" issue with the fact that construccionism IS
THE BEST<br>
WAY to teach to the peruvian children (I don't know about other
countries,<br>
each place is different. In my own country there is HUGE difference
with the kids<br>
on the jungle and the kids on the Andes mountains, let's don't speak
about our<br>
kids on the coast). <br>
<br>
f) For the record: I don't like the idea that Microsoft comes with the
XOs but if it<br>
comes.. we can manage it, we have managed in the last 20 years. No big
deal<br>
here in Peru. For you it can be the end of the world, for us it is
just another<br>
issue. I have work more than 30 years with computers in Peru, so I
know what<br>
I am telling you: no kid will die. You, all americans, should be more
interested <br>
in asking your congressmen why they don't order to divide microsoft in
different<br>
companies. It works with the Standard Oil (and the more powerfulll Mr.
Rockefeller)<br>
and with the original Bell Company (that became separated in the Baby
Bells).<br>
But I am peruvian and I can not tell you what you need to do. I ask
myself only.<br>
I know many good american fellows that do the same: they don't try to
give<br>
solutions before they ask questions.<br>
<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:e574f6eb0805190047w58bc7c9ds9c1baeec95483e41@mail.gmail.com"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite">
<pre wrap="">might not be stylish, but it works.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap=""><!---->
No, it doesn't work as education, only as social control. You can't
show me a single study demonstrating that it works better than real
education, and I can cite dozens to the contrary.
</pre>
</blockquote>
g) Social control? Edward! EVERYTHING in the human race is social
control, fight for power,<br>
and survival. It is the same in the animal and vegetal world. <br>
Show me one human society that has not a strict structure of dominance
or power.<br>
>From the old times until today. You are American... (I think so) so I
don't want to take<br>
many examples of your society, so I will speak about MY society:
Peruvian society. Here,<br>
my dear Edward, the poor kids are not worried about WHO will apply
"social control"<br>
over them, they look for more simple things that can be solved (with
good will and some<br>
effort) inside ANY social control structure. Furthermore, some day,
this kids will<br>
dominate and they will be the ones in charge of the "social control" of
other kids. It is not<br>
"social control" what worries me. Is that some kind of social control
is develop on such<br>
a level that involves hungry and death of many people. But some form
of "social control"<br>
will happen all the time. <br>
<br>
h) Republican or Democrat? uhhmmmm... are we talking about<br>
the peruvian kids in the middle of the Andes Mountains?.. Remenber that
for american<br>
people (U.S. Citizens) their personal economy improve on the Democrats
goverments,<br>
and for foreing people (like us, peruvians) we enjoy a better economy
when the <br>
Republican are in charge. So, if we care about the peruvian kids,
let's try to develop <br>
things beyond the local (U.S.) political preferences.<br>
<br>
I hope that this pill is not too big for you, for the list or for any
adult person subscribed<br>
to this lists. Many times people is manipulated saying that this or
that should not be<br>
talk because more damage will show up. I don't think so. Somepeople
say that they<br>
understand that some "negotiations" with top companies (like Microsoft)
and some<br>
governments (like my government) should be kept confidential. I think
it is wrong. <br>
Transparency during the whole process is necessary because this is a
public affair<br>
that will affect the life of so many people.<br>
<br>
Know I will look for my iron suit (flames, rocks, and poisoned arrows
will come!)<br>
<br>
This remind me when the first mail lists were "invented"... war!
Sometimes me, as many<br>
of you, think that we invented the game! (sorry "less than 40 years
old" kids!)... but <br>
that is an illusion that we talk many times with late John Postel (who
invented this or<br>
establish this... well other day we can share those old stories).<br>
<br>
Best regards,<br>
<br>
Javier Rodriguez<br>
Lima, Peru<br>
<br>
<br>
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