[support-gang] Fwd: Redesigning: Library, Read, Get-Books, and Content bundles
Yioryos Asprobounitis
mavrothal at yahoo.com
Sat Jul 24 04:09:47 EDT 2010
--- On Sat, 7/24/10, Gary Martin <garycmartin at googlemail.com> wrote:
> From: Gary Martin <garycmartin at googlemail.com>
> Subject: Re: [support-gang] Fwd: Redesigning: Library, Read, Get-Books, and Content bundles
> To: "Community Support Volunteers -- who help respond to help AT laptop.org" <support-gang at lists.laptop.org>
> Cc: "Andreas Gros" <andigros72 at googlemail.com>, "OLPC Devel" <devel at lists.laptop.org>, "Support Gangsters" <support-gang at laptop.org>, "Community Support Volunteers -- who help respond to help AT laptop.org" <support-gang at lists.laptop.org>
> Date: Saturday, July 24, 2010, 1:22 AM
> Hi Yioryos,
>
> Thanks for the extra feedback. You probably won't like my
> notes below ;)
But I hope you do like mine... ;-)
I can understand the "difficulties", but how can you develop an "educational platform" when you do/can not provide proper studying and composing tools, no matter how many programming applications you have?
And on pedagogical front, what's the point of viewing source code if its followed by a number of "sorry, you can not do that"?
This is not a flame attempt and the above examples are neither "either/or" nor trying to diminish what is accomplished so far (which is a lot).
It just provides a different prospective on priorities, and considering what Michael Stone just suggested, could be feasible too.
but I thought I'd reply just incase any ring
> true for you or others.
>
> On 22 Jul 2010, at 08:45, Yioryos Asprobounitis <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
> wrote:
>
> > cc olpc devel
> >
> > OK. I'll try to be "technical" but ignore things that
> are difficult or not possible at the moment :-)
>
> :)
>
> > Step 1 is a Library kind of activity, lets all it
> "tutor" where the user will be able to aggregate different
> journal entries from Read, Write, Browse, Wikipedia, image,
> video, Physics activity, Pippy etc (you get the idea) and
> order them at will.
>
> I really hope we can get some Journal tagging improvements
> in at some point. Seems like a lot of the tag functionality
> is there and working, but the user experience is not
> polished enough so it rarely gets used. I think easier
> Journal tagging workflow would cover this use case.
>
> > Step 2 is to embed this activity in the Read and Write
> activity and present it optionally in a separate
> window. Clicking on individual entries transposes you
> to the relevant point.
>
> I'm going to sound like a broken record ;) again this is
> just the task the Journal is meant to do in Sugar's design.
>
> > Step 3 is to introduce marks (hyperlinks?) in Read and
> Write where hovering over you get the tag opened to tell you
> what is about, and clicking transposes you to the relevant
> book/app-mark
>
> As noted already this would seem to break Sugars's security
> model, activities need to be sand-boxed from each other, one
> activity is not allowed to resume another. Yea, back to
> Journal, again! ;)
>
> > Step 4 is to be able to also write from any
> application to "tutor", eg when you add a Journal bookmark
> to also have the option to add it into a specific "tutor"
> and preferably to a specific (order) point.
>
> Walter is working on allowing the Journal details view /
> naming dialogue to be opened at any time from an activity
> (hopefully merging the two separate bits of code to reduce
> maintenance at some point).
>
> > Step 5 is to be able to "publish" or share your
> "tutor" the way kids share class notes. I could bet is going
> to be a popular activity and actually better cope with the
> multitude of learning styles that kids have.
>
> Yes, currently the Journal has a 'share with --> friend'
> feature that works pretty well (as long as an activity sets
> a mime type for its Journal entries). Requests for actions
> on multiple Journal entries have popped up rather frequently
> over the last few Sugar releases (usually for bulk
> deletions, or bulk copying to and from USB); this would also
> be ideal for sending multiple Journal entries to a friend. A
> workflow of something like 1) search Journal for the tags
> 'math class notes' 2) select all result entries 3) select
> 'share with --> friend', and bingo, your class mate gets
> all the notes from the class they had been skiving from all
> term ;)
>
> > Regarding PDF we know that there are applications that
> allow to highlight, insert bookmarks, notes or hyperlinks
> in PDF documents. I do not know if Envice can do all
> theses. I just know that is doable.
>
> The Mac OS X built in Preview application can do this type
> of thing, and obviously Adobe's Acrobat products also have
> similar functionality. I do occasionally use it when
> reviewing PDF based material, though it does have some
> limitations. Annotations seem to be rendered into the
> document, so once saved your annotations can not be
> removed/edited. I usually end up with a trail of separate
> documents saved just in case I need to revert.
>
> I'm digging around in Reads Epub support at the moment,
> I'll keep my eyes open for possible annotation support.
>
> Regards,
> --Gary
>
> > --- On Wed, 7/21/10, Gary Martin <garycmartin at googlemail.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> From: Gary Martin <garycmartin at googlemail.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [support-gang] Fwd: Redesigning:
> Library, Read, Get-Books, and Content bundles
> >> To: "Community Support Volunteers -- who help
> respond to help AT laptop.org" <support-gang at lists.laptop.org>
> >> Cc: "Andreas Gros" <andigros72 at googlemail.com>,
> "Support Gangsters" <support-gang at laptop.org>,
> "Community Support Volunteers -- who help respond to help AT
> laptop.org" <support-gang at lists.laptop.org>
> >> Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 5:59 PM
> >> Hi Yioryos,
> >>
> >> On 21 Jul 2010, at 18:26, Yioryos Asprobounitis
> <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >>> I think that he reader does not care if the
> format is
> >> this or that (with the exception of plain text
> that is
> >> totally unappealing to read, to say the least) or
> if it is
> >> this or that component, and not Read that fails.
> >>> For sure ETexts ability to highlight is OK
> but
> >> bookmarking-wise is rudimentary and cross-linking
> non
> >> existing.
> >>> Also whatever bookmarking and commenting there
> is it
> >> goes through individual journal entries, instead
> of "your
> >> private index" within the book (unless I miss
> something)
> >> which is much more usefull. It is clearly an
> improvement
> >> over Read in that front but hardly sufficient.
> >>
> >> Could you expand a little more on this idea, I'm
> not sure I
> >> follow it 100%. I take it as a request for a
> global index?
> >> Outside of the individual page bookmarks and notes
> that Read
> >> currently provides (Read stores these
> notes/bookmarks inside
> >> the Journal entry for that book, my first thought
> on the
> >> global case is again the Journal. It
> supports both a
> >> tags section and description section for each
> journal entry
> >> (see the details view in each entry). These
> sections are
> >> fully searchable from the Journal and are a great
> way to
> >> quickly pull up an entry via a keyword search - I
> used this
> >> in a previous Sugar on a stick version so that
> there were a
> >> set of about a dozen PDF world maps Journal
> entries with all
> >> the text place locations entered in their
> descriptions; you
> >> could then just search in Journal for 'London',
> 'Hangzhou',
> >> 'Lahore' or where ever, and Journal would show the
> maps that
> >> contained those named locations. Perhaps more is
> needed
> >> here? We do already know the Journal details v
> >> iew is a little hard to get to, Walter has been
> working on
> >> some solutions to improve access allowing you to
> pull up and
> >> edit the details from inside any open activity at
> any time.
> >>
> >> Regards,
> >> --Gary
> >>
> >>> But I guess what is not clear to me is if you
> are
> >> suggesting that Read is fine and we should rather
> focus on
> >> other things or that there is nothing we can do
> about the
> >> Read/ETexts issues and better focus elsewhere, or
> none of
> >> the above.
> >>> At the end of the day is up to the developers
> to do
> >> what they want, but is nice to be clear on what we
> would
> >> like to have if we could.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --- On Wed, 7/21/10, James Simmons <nicestep at gmail.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> From: James Simmons <nicestep at gmail.com>
> >>>> Subject: Re: [support-gang] Fwd:
> Redesigning:
> >> Library, Read, Get-Books, and Content
> bundles
> >>>> To: "Community Support Volunteers -- who
> help
> >> respond to "help AT laptop.org"" <support-gang at lists.laptop.org>,
> >> "Yioryos Asprobounitis" <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
> >>>> Cc: "Support Gangsters" <support-gang at laptop.org>,
> >> "Adam Holt" <holt at laptop.org>,
> >> "Andreas Gros" <andigros72 at googlemail.com>
> >>>> Date: Wednesday, July 21, 2010, 11:06 AM
> >>>> Yioryos,
> >>>>
> >>>> Some of the perfectly valid complaints you
> have
> >> are not
> >>>> Read's fault.
> >>>> The PDF format is problematic, and the
> DjVu format
> >> is not
> >>>> much better.
> >>>> With either one there is no good way to
> zoom to
> >> the
> >>>> readable portion
> >>>> of the document, or to change the font
> size, or
> >> re-wrap
> >>>> text. The
> >>>> EPUB format solves these problems, and
> Plain Text
> >> with the
> >>>> Read Etext
> >>>> activity works pretty well too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Losing bookmarks is probably a Sugar
> issue.
> >> Read uses
> >>>> custom meta
> >>>> data to save page numbers. On .82
> and before
> >> custom
> >>>> metadata would
> >>>> not survive a reboot. After .82 it
> would,
> >> but
> >>>> apparently not always.
> >>>> I have experienced this problem with Read
> myself.
> >>>>
> >>>> Some of the highlighting and annotating
> features
> >> you have
> >>>> requested
> >>>> are in Read Etexts. Plain Text is an
> easier
> >> format to
> >>>> deal with than
> >>>> PDF, so adding features like this is
> simpler than
> >> it would
> >>>> be to put
> >>>> them in Read. I do know that Read
> supports
> >> multiple
> >>>> bookmarks, and
> >>>> you can attach notes to each bookmark.
> >>>>
> >>>> James Simmons
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 4:34 AM, Yioryos
> >> Asprobounitis
> >>>> <mavrothal at yahoo.com>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>> Till the actual user arrives, let me
> offer
> >> few
> >>>> thoughts more from observing
> >>>>> and less from using the actual
> activity
> >> combo
> >>>> (Read/Get
> >>>>> Books/Browse/Journal) for Reading.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> To get a book and read it may take
> anything
> >> from 1 to
> >>>> 20+ hours. Lets say
> >>>>> average 10h. From these the actual
> initial
> >> steps may
> >>>> take 1-5 minutes
> >>>>> depending if you have an Apple eBook
> >> integration or a
> >>>> "low tech" Sugar
> >>>>> implementation. So in my mind there is
> no
> >> contest
> >>>> where priorities lay. The
> >>>>> read Activity per se. The rest might
> be
> >> interesting
> >>>> from a "wow" point of
> >>>>> view, administration, additional
> functionality
> >> or
> >>>> programming, but not
> >>>>> necessarily for reading/studying
> process.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Prioritizing, I would rather have
> Read
> >>>> activity/Journal not to loose your
> >>>>> bookmark, the last page you read, as
> it often
> >> happens.
> >>>> It is very
> >>>>> distracting and annoying when it
> happens half
> >> way a
> >>>> 300 pages book.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like it to zoom to the correct
> size.
> >> In many
> >>>> books it does not and
> >>>>> you have to do it every time you open
> the book
> >> again.
> >>>> Given the XOs
> >>>>> rendering/zooming ability, is
> painful.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like it to keep the same font
> size on
> >> screen
> >>>> rotation. Holding an
> >>>>> XO (or a book) for a long time in the
> same
> >> position is
> >>>> almost impossible.
> >>>>> Changing position should not be
> distracting.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like the reader to set a
> global font
> >> size that
> >>>> (s)he is comfortable
> >>>>> with. Small kids like big letters and
> as their
> >> reading
> >>>> ability progresses
> >>>>> are conformable with smaller and they
> rather
> >> not keep
> >>>> changing pages.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like to be able to highlight
> both
> >> in tablet
> >>>> and clamshell setting.
> >>>>> Particularly important for studying.
> Great
> >> help when
> >>>> you want to
> >>>>> speed-refress
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like to be able to add
> comments and
> >> book marks
> >>>> that you can easily
> >>>>> catalogue/find on pages. Great
> help when
> >> you write a
> >>>> report, check an event
> >>>>> sequence, idea development etc.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I would like it to be able to add
> cross
> >> reference
> >>>> marking to other book or
> >>>>> web pages, so you can develop your
> own
> >> studying flow.
> >>>> This is particularly
> >>>>> important for school work. To go
> further up,
> >> for
> >>>> comparative reading or
> >>>>> reference. For example how text books
> from
> >> neighboring
> >>>> countries present the
> >>>>> same historic period, event? What else
> is
> >> happening in
> >>>> the world at the same
> >>>>> time?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I'm sure that some of the changes
> required to
> >> achieve
> >>>> all these would be
> >>>>> useful towards an integration but I
> would
> >> rather start
> >>>> with a robust
> >>>>> Read.activity in mind that not
> facilitates
> >> reading and
> >>>> studying but can
> >>>>> bring it to a new level.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> --- On Tue, 7/20/10, Adam Holt <holt at laptop.org>
> >>>> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>> From: Adam Holt <holt at laptop.org>
> >>>>> Subject: Fwd: Redesigning: Library,
> Read,
> >> Get-Books,
> >>>> and Content bundles
> >>>>> To: "Support Gangsters" <support-gang at laptop.org>
> >>>>> Cc: "Yioryos Asprobounitis" <mavrothal at yahoo.com>,
> >>>> "Andreas Gros"
> >>>>> <andigros72 at googlemail.com>
> >>>>> Date: Tuesday, July 20, 2010, 2:44 PM
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Yioryos,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Plz let us know what your son (the
> consummate
> >>>> eBook-on-XO reader) thinks :)
> >>>>>
> >>>>> (Hoping this leads to progress before
> "Oct
> >> 1-2" when a
> >>>> mini-conf on all
> >>>>> these eBook-on-XO topics may happen
> in
> >> Cambridge,
> >>>> Massachusetts...)
> >>>>> --A!
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Subject: Redesigning: Library, Read,
> >> Get-Books, and
> >>>> Content bundles
> >>>>> Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2010 14:33:07 -0400
> >>>>> From: Reuben K. Caron <reuben at laptop.org>
> >>>>> To: OLPC Devel <devel at lists.laptop.org>,
> >>>> iaep at lists.sugarlabs.org
> >>>>>
> >>>>> There has been a lot of great progress
> with
> >> the Read
> >>>> and Get-Books
> >>>>> (IA) activities. However, we have
> neglected to
> >> think
> >>>> about how we can
> >>>>> better fit all of these pieces
> together. For
> >> instance,
> >>>> consider
> >>>>> deployments that would like to
> install
> >> content
> >>>> bundles. They package
> >>>>> these files into .xol packages and
> these
> >> packages get
> >>>> installed into
> >>>>> the "Library," which is contained on
> the left
> >> hand
> >>>> side of the Browse
> >>>>> activity. Yes, you read that
> correctly..."the
> >> BROWSE
> >>>> activity," an
> >>>>> activity intended for online
> exploration is
> >> used to
> >>>> view offline
> >>>>> content. Every deployment that I have
> shown
> >> this to
> >>>> has found it very
> >>>>> unintuitive. Consider another example:
> You
> >> want to use
> >>>> Get-Books to
> >>>>> get a new book. So you open Get-Books
> search
> >> for a
> >>>> book and download
> >>>>> the book. But where did it go? I guess
> one
> >> could
> >>>> assume (correctly)
> >>>>> that it went to the journal. So you
> close
> >> Get-Books.
> >>>> Go to the
> >>>>> Journal. Find the book you downloaded.
> Open
> >> the book
> >>>> (in Read.) IMHO,
> >>>>> a series of needless steps.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> So what if we created a "Library
> Activity"
> >>>>> The activity would:
> >>>>> -Open a book from within the activity
> >>>>> -Highlight and annotate books
> >>>>> -List all of the books you have
> downloaded
> >>>>> -Allow you to search and download
> additional
> >> books
> >>>> from Feed Books,
> >>>>> Internet Archive, the XS, etc..
> >>>>> -List the resources in
> /home/olpc/Library (so
> >> this can
> >>>> be removed from
> >>>>> Browse)
> >>>>> -Allow one to synchronously or
> asynchronously
> >> share a
> >>>> book to their
> >>>>> Neighborhood so anyone can download
> and read
> >> it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I have filed a bug here if anyone
> would like
> >> to follow
> >>>> it:
> >>>>> http://bugs.sugarlabs.org/ticket/2110
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I look forward to hearing your
> thoughts.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Regards,
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Reuben
> >>>>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> Devel mailing list
> >>>>> Devel at lists.laptop.org
> >>>>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/devel
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >> _______________________________________________
> >>>>> support-gang mailing list
> >>>>> support-gang at lists.laptop.org
> >>>>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/support-gang
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> _______________________________________________
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> >>> support-gang at lists.laptop.org
> >>> http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/support-gang
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> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >
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