Violent games on the OLPC Activities page

[Jeffrey Kesselman]

2008/1/17 Bennett Todd <bet at rahul.net>:
> 2008-01-17T21:09:22 Ties Stuij:
> > > > What's wrong with erring on the safe side with a controversial
> > > > topic like video game violence in a learning setting like the
> > > > OLPC project.
> > [...]
> > As was mentioned earlier in this thread, there are always gliding
> > scales. The solution is not to just forget about them and just allow
> > everything to keep things simple. To clarify my sentence above, I
> > don't think the topic of violence in a learning setting is so
> > controversial.
>
> Let's get a concrete definition of "violence" and I think the
> disagreement will fade right out.
>
> Would a game like pacman count? How about asteroids? Missile
> command? I'd probably feel good about a definition that could
> exclude missile command, that made me feel ill the first time I saw
> it.

here here.  And this was my first complaint.

My second however though is more basic.

Those attacking the messenger by accusing those of us who dont want to knee
jerk censor "violence" with insensitivity could frankly use some
sensitivity lessons themselves.

Now, lets try to have a discussion not a propaganda war, okay? (Ad
hominem attack is a PRIME element of propaganda.)

The fact of the matter is that people all over the world have had
traumatic experiences with
all sorts of different things.  I don't think it is or should be the
mission of the OLPC
to try to protect them  from themselves and what they might decide to
expose themselves to.

Parents.  Absolutely.  No child of mine will be using an OLPC
un-monitored.  It doesn't take spending very long on the internet for
one to realize there are all sorts of things on it a child shouldn't
be exposed to at the wrong development point.

Educators, again absolutely.

If there is really such a culture wide trauma that a government wants
to, well, then maybe that too.  (Germany for instance until fairly
recently in history outright outlawed any mention of the Nazis.  In
that case, sure, let them take an axe to  the encyclopedias and
whatever on the OLPCs they might chose to distribute.)

But the OLPC organization is NONE of these and does ALL of these
others a disservice when it choses to start playing "in loco
parentis."

Once... whne dinosaurs roamed the earth, I was a college sophamore.
And back then I believed in the sophomoric notion that laws should
protect people from themselves.  I've learned a lot better since then.

"Those who are willing to sacrifice freedom for safety, deserve
neither."  --Benjamin Franklin


>
> I missed Doom, didn't know anything about it. Sounds like a good
> candidate for putting in a separate place from educational games for
> young children.

On a content level, sure.  And its dfinitely not a "young childrens" activity.

OTOH the DOOM engine represents some *extremely* clever graphics
programming on limited hardware and as a programmign example is
something kids can learn
a lot from.

My personal suggestion to the self-appointed censors is, if you don't
like the content it ships with, go create some you DONT find
objectionable to offer as an alternative.

.
>
> > And it's not so controversial politically, or socially.
>
> Doom no, it appears. But:

Well Ill stand apart and say I think, given what we ship to other
countries otu of Hollywood, its ABSURD to be worrying about the level
of violence in DOOM.

>
> > The only groups who would endorse a game like this that i can
> > think of would be the arms lobby and some extreme Christian sects.

Wrong.  Im neither.

>
> It's folks in extreme [religion] sects, and other "my beliefs win,
> agree or die" types that worry me the most.

Uh huh.  And "violence is inherently wrong and evil and we must
protect other people's children from it" is really just such a
religious belief.

>
> > I don't want to generalize but amongst a number of nay-sayers I sense
> > a strong cencorship fear, while I just see a pragmatic decision to not
> > include war material in an education project.

War?  Where is there a War  in DOOM?  I'd classify DOOM closer to
Horror/Survival to be honest.

And if were "not going to include war material in an education
project" does that mean no history texts?  Cause they are full of
wars...

>
> Can we get a concrete definition of "war material"?


>
> It's not censorship, OLPC owns this microphone, they get to decide
> how it's used. I'm not saying Doom belongs on the same page as
> SimCity and Speak. Given your above description it shouldn't. I'm
> asking for _some_ kind of line between the two. The recent DVD
> release of the first season of Sesame Street warns that it isn't
> appropriate for young children. That creeps me out.
>
> How do we define the line between Doom and SpaceWars?
>
> I see the Activities page currently requests no "strongly violent"
> games. Is that clear enough?

I really want to know why we are singling out "strongly violent" as if
its the only message you should worry about your child getting.

What about hate messages?  Anti-gay messages? Pro-gay messages?
Right-wing Political propaganda.  Left wing political propaganda,
Pro-religious messages.  Anti-religious messages.  The list is
endless.... and in the end, its the parents who should be making the
calls, not us.

JK