[laptop-accessibility] Screen reader software -- any progress?

Tim hobbs tim.thelion at gmail.com
Sun Feb 10 18:17:03 EST 2008 

Though I had not used orca before I had used the gnome accessibility
tools.  Now, I'm not sure, I've either used both, or they are the same
thing.  For me, orca is useless.  Magnification alone does not help me
at all and tracking is infact harder for me with the weird "the screen
is the minimap".  My grandfather, who has macular degeneration(and
thus needs magnification) found that setting the dpi to be extra high
was the least confusing.  I have used speech dispatcher quite a bit
for my own personal scripts and with emacs' speechd.el In these
scenarios, speech dispatcher-application communication was direct and
no locational information was sent.  Given the nature of orca's
magnifier utility, I assume that while locational information is sent,
geometric information is not.  This actually leads to a bug when using
orca with only the keyboard: text boxes are often focused by keyboard
without the magnifier moving to show their labels.  What I envision in
my line based interface is that the screen would be in regions:

empty | Normal   | empty
empty | squished | empty
        magnified
empty | squished | empty
empty | normal   |

So the current line would be magnified IN PLACE, a small area above
and below it would be squished, and the rest would be normal in size.
This requires that we know the height of the current line as well as
it's location.  The reason why I suggest squishing is simply that I do
not believe it technically feasible to 'cut' the window in two and move
the bottom half downwards to make way for the in place magnification.
The reason I propose this be line based is that in place magnification
would be weird if there was squishing on the sides as well.  The way I
imagine things, the window manager could tell the window to be a
certain amount less wide to make way for the wider magnified bar.
Line based thinking also works well when we look at keyboard
accessibility, especially navigating with the keypads on either side
of the screen.  I do not think that these things will work out, though
if we don't mandate line based navigation from the start.

Thankyou,
Timothy



On 2/10/08, Hemant Goyal <goyal.hemant at gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Tim,
>
> As Gilles pointed out, once we are done with integration of
> speech-dispatcher we intend to explore orca which I think is used by many
> people with low-vision. orca has built-in support for speech-dispatcher and
> from my understanding provides locational information to the user.
>
> I request you to explore orca with speech-dispatcher as the speech-synthesis
> engine once if you have not already done so.
>
> Thanks!
> Hemant
>
> On Feb 10, 2008 10:30 PM, <accessibility-request at lists.laptop.org> wrote:
>
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> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >   1. Re: Screen reader software -- any progress? (Hemant Goyal)
> >   2. Re: Screen reader software -- any progress? (Duane King)
> >   3. Re: Screen reader software -- any progress? (Tim hobbs)
> >   4. Re: Screen reader software -- any progress? (Gilles Casse)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 22:50:51 +0530
> > From: "Hemant Goyal" <goyal.hemant at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [laptop-accessibility] Screen reader software -- any
> >        progress?
> > To: "Brad Paulsen" <brad.paulsen at gmail.com>
> > Cc: accessibility at lists.laptop.org, Assim Deodia
> >        <assim.deodia at gmail.com>
> > Message-ID:
> >        <8c53493a0802090920q498f74aeo303ae65b0d7e19 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Brad,
> >
> > Maybe we should coordinate our efforts. We are presently working to bring
> > speech synthesis capabilities on the XO.
> >
> > We have made significant progress and are documenting our results here :
> > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Screen_Reader [It is slightly outdated wrt the
> > DBUS speech server, as we are planning to dump that approach and instead
> > use
> > speech-dispatcher]
> >
> > At present Assim Deodia is working to improve the eSpeak phoneme data for
> > better voice quality/output on the XO, and I am working on integrating
> > speech-dispatcher in the XO as a means of providing a simple to use speech
> > synthesis api.
> >
> > I have opened a Ticket which might interest you :
> > http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/6284
> >
> > Best,
> > Hemant
> >
> > This posting is very new and, at the moment, consists only of a block
> > > diagram of the approach I am proposing.  I have several pages of
> > narrative
> > > in the works at the moment and I am hoping to post the first version of
> > it
> > > to the Free Speech wiki article sometime this weekend.  In the meantime,
> > > please check out the links in the "See also" section of the article.
> >  Those
> > > linked-to articles contain links to other speech-related efforts
> > currently
> > > underway for the XO (for example, eSpeak).
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > > Brad
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
> >
> http://lists.laptop.org/pipermail/accessibility/attachments/20080209/5b25bee4/attachment-0001.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 7 Feb 2008 22:23:12 -0800
> > From: Duane King <dking at pimpsoft.com>
> > Subject: Re: [laptop-accessibility] Screen reader software -- any
> >        progress?
> > To: accessibility at lists.laptop.org
> > Cc: Assim Deodia <assim.deodia at gmail.com>,      Hemant Goyal
> >        <goyal.hemant at gmail.com>
> > Message-ID: <200802072223.12534.dking at pimpsoft.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain;  charset="iso-8859-1"
> >
> > Brad,
> >  Another advantage to using the speech dispatcher and its API is that a
> > lot of
> > wok can be leveraged from it; There is an entire community gathered around
> > it
> > already, and its already used in production systems by blind computer
> > professionals like myself, hence why I suggested it to Hemant off the
> > list.
> >
> > I would personalky love it if more people joined our little co-oped
> > efforts;
> > and by all means your group - or any others - are more then welcome to do
> > so.
> >
> > - Duane
> >
> > On Saturday 09 February 2008 09:20:51 am Hemant Goyal wrote:
> > > Brad,
> > >
> > > Maybe we should coordinate our efforts. We are presently working to
> > bring
> > > speech synthesis capabilities on the XO.
> > >
> > > We have made significant progress and are documenting our results here :
> > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Screen_Reader [It is slightly outdated wrt the
> > > DBUS speech server, as we are planning to dump that approach and instead
> > > use speech-dispatcher]
> > >
> > > At present Assim Deodia is working to improve the eSpeak phoneme data
> > for
> > > better voice quality/output on the XO, and I am working on integrating
> > > speech-dispatcher in the XO as a means of providing a simple to use
> > speech
> > > synthesis api.
> > >
> > > I have opened a Ticket which might interest you :
> > > http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/6284
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Hemant
> > >
> > > This posting is very new and, at the moment, consists only of a block
> > >
> > > > diagram of the approach I am proposing.  I have several pages of
> > > > narrative in the works at the moment and I am hoping to post the first
> > > > version of it to the Free Speech wiki article sometime this weekend.
> >  In
> > > > the meantime, please check out the links in the "See also" section of
> > the
> > > > article.  Those linked-to articles contain links to other
> > speech-related
> > > > efforts currently underway for the XO (for example, eSpeak).
> > > >
> > > > Cheers,
> > > >
> > > > Brad
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Sat, 9 Feb 2008 18:09:01 -0800
> > From: "Tim hobbs" <tim.thelion at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [laptop-accessibility] Screen reader software -- any
> >        progress?
> > To: dking at pimpsoft.com, "Discussion of accessibility on the OLPC"
> >        <accessibility at lists.laptop.org>
> > Message-ID:
> >        <650efde80802091809l6f01c651v34e32dd2aee43036 at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > I am strongly opposed to the use of a vanilla Activity-Speech
> > dispatcher communicating for the following reasons:
> > 1.  Visually impaired and cognitively impaired persons *must* have a
> > standardised keyboard navigation system which is both intuitive(with a
> > low learning curve), and well intigrated into the speech server,
> > Speech dispatcher does not mandate such a thing.
> > 2.  There is no geometric or locational information sent with the
> > text.  I for one have very low visual acuity, this means that my eyes
> > don't stay in one place and have difficulty tracking from line to
> > line.  I very successfully use a setup where the current line is
> > positive polarity, and the background text is negative
> > http://www.timthelion.com/emacs-current-line-polarity.png ,  I work
> > even better if the current line of text is magnified.  A plug-in to
> > speech dispatcher which instead of speaking or outputting to brail,
> > magnified text at an appropriate location on the screen is impossible
> > without that location being tracked by the Activity.
> >
> > I have written a proposal for a different protocol which solves these
> > problems. http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Accessibility_Line_Based_Interface
> > I urge you to look at this and consider what it provides that speech
> > dispatcher does not, namely:
> >
> > 1. A very simple intuitive, "navigational" instead of "magic hotkey"
> > keyboard accessibility setup.
> >
> > 2. Geometric information about text.
> >
> > Otherwise, I believe the two standards/protocols to be functionally
> > identical so there should be no real need to change course.  Maybe my
> > ideas can be implemented as easily as having SayText take (text, x, y,
> > w,h) and implementing line based keyboard accessibility which triggers
> > such events in Sugar Activities.
> >
> > Thankyou,
> > Timothy
> >
> >
> > On 2/7/08, Duane King <dking at pimpsoft.com> wrote:
> > > Brad,
> > >  Another advantage to using the speech dispatcher and its API is that a
> > lot
> > > of
> > > wok can be leveraged from it; There is an entire community gathered
> > around
> > > it
> > > already, and its already used in production systems by blind computer
> > > professionals like myself, hence why I suggested it to Hemant off the
> > list.
> > >
> > > I would personalky love it if more people joined our little co-oped
> > efforts;
> > > and by all means your group - or any others - are more then welcome to
> > do
> > > so.
> > >
> > > - Duane
> > >
> > > On Saturday 09 February 2008 09:20:51 am Hemant Goyal wrote:
> > > > Brad,
> > > >
> > > > Maybe we should coordinate our efforts. We are presently working to
> > bring
> > > > speech synthesis capabilities on the XO.
> > > >
> > > > We have made significant progress and are documenting our results here
> > :
> > > > http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Screen_Reader [It is slightly outdated wrt
> > the
> > > > DBUS speech server, as we are planning to dump that approach and
> > instead
> > > > use speech-dispatcher]
> > > >
> > > > At present Assim Deodia is working to improve the eSpeak phoneme data
> > for
> > > > better voice quality/output on the XO, and I am working on integrating
> > > > speech-dispatcher in the XO as a means of providing a simple to use
> > speech
> > > > synthesis api.
> > > >
> > > > I have opened a Ticket which might interest you :
> > > > http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/6284
> > > >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Hemant
> > > >
> > > > This posting is very new and, at the moment, consists only of a block
> > > >
> > > > > diagram of the approach I am proposing.  I have several pages of
> > > > > narrative in the works at the moment and I am hoping to post the
> > first
> > > > > version of it to the Free Speech wiki article sometime this weekend.
> >  In
> > > > > the meantime, please check out the links in the "See also" section
> > of
> > > the
> > > > > article.  Those linked-to articles contain links to other
> > speech-related
> > > > > efforts currently underway for the XO (for example, eSpeak).
> > > > >
> > > > > Cheers,
> > > > >
> > > > > Brad
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > accessibility mailing list
> > > accessibility at lists.laptop.org
> > > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/accessibility
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > -
> > Tim
> > tim.thelion at gmail.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2008 12:03:13 +0100
> > From: Gilles Casse <gcasse at oralux.org>
> > Subject: Re: [laptop-accessibility] Screen reader software -- any
> >        progress?
> > To: Discussion of accessibility on the OLPC
> >        <accessibility at lists.laptop.org>
> > Message-ID: <47AED9F1.6090603 at oralux.org>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> >
> > Hi Tim,
> >
> > Speech-dispatcher is a back-end: it manages speech synthesizers and
> > audio output, it does not interfere in fact with the user interface.
> >
> > The text to be said is supplied to Speech-dispatcher by a client
> > compliant with the user interface (text based or GUI).
> >
> > Available clients today:
> > - Speechd-el for a talking emacs,
> > - Speechd-up for Speakup,
> > - The Orca screen reader can also communicate with speech-dispatcher.
> >
> > Speech dispatcher offers distinct audio modules: speech can be said via
> > Alsa, OSS, NAS or PulseAudio.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Gilles
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > accessibility mailing list
> > accessibility at lists.laptop.org
> > http://lists.laptop.org/listinfo/accessibility
> >
> >
> > End of accessibility Digest, Vol 11, Issue 3
> > ********************************************
> >
>


-- 
-
Tim
tim.thelion at gmail.com

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